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Thread: Super Tuesday

  1. #151
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Taxation is extortion of the willing.
    how's it a problem if they're willing then?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I can't bring myself to trust a group of people who's primary objective is to earn money to take the best care of the rest of us though. My background can't allow that
    Ditto what Oberon said. Plus, who is more likely to take a bribe? A private employee who is paid a fair salary, or someone in a government job?

    If you're looking for someone to do a job without the primary motive of earning money, you will probably be looking for a long time.

    and think of how unpleasant society would be if that occurred on a large scale someone would end up shooting thier own teenage child coming in late, or the intruder and the homeowner would end up in some sort of gunfight and things just wouldn't go all that well. People are stupid- you're best off having someone professionally do your dirty work for you so that they get the blame if things go wrong instead of you!
    People are stupid...but professionals in law enforcement are people too, no? I love the police and I wouldn't advocate getting rid of them. But frankly, I trust myself more in a situation like that than I trust a stranger who is going to arrive late. If the intruder is in fact my own teenager, why am I more likely to shoot him than a cop? At least I have the benefit of knowing who he is.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  3. #153
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Taxation is extortion of the willing.
    That's an illogical statement for the simple purpose of pithy soundbyte. Have you considered politics?

    Extortion of the willing is like saying rape of the consenting. The act of protest or passive non-consent must be part of the situation, or extortion isn't extortion.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  4. #154
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    (whatever now hates ImNotTooPopular for introducing gun control into this whole debate :steam

    and what about the cases when the intruder is someone you know? There have been several instances of that happening in my area- people shooting thier own kids when they came in late and such

    not to mention the legal repercussions of shooting someone in your home :horor:
    I'm sure some folks would love to shoot their own children.

    Other than those people, though, people should be more careful about who they shoot. "Who is there? I've got a gun. Identify yourself." Don't be trigger happy when you don't know who you're shooting.

    Since you hate me now, please, don't shoot me.

  5. #155
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    how's it a problem if they're willing then?
    I was pointing out that taxes actually do come from people. Saying that it belongs to everyone doesn't erase the fact that a very small minority pays the vast majority of taxes thanks to progressive taxation.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  6. #156
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    That's an illogical statement for the simple purpose of pithy soundbyte. Have you considered politics?

    Extortion of the willing is like saying rape of the consenting. The act of protest or passive non-consent must be part of the situation, or extortion isn't extortion.
    No. I meant that people put up with it. If a gangster takes money from a shop every week, it is still extortion even if they pay up without fight every week.

    So, in your analogy, it would be like raping a broken sex-slave that doesn't put up a fight.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Exactly.

    Now tell my why it's different if the money comes from taxes.
    The money from taxes is, in a sense, people buying an army, roads, police, fire departments, etc., whereas money going to factories is most often simply for producing products, as a lot of people don't care enough to know how much pollution is being done, so it won't effect the decisions of people working at the business as much, depending on how much people do care. (to use the factory pollution example.).

    Well, there are plenty of people who have run over their own children with cars, but that's not an argument for everyone to walk everywhere they go. Every aspect of our lives is governed by a calculation of risk vs. reward. For most in the US, the reward of using cars is worth the risk to ourselves and others. For myself, self-defense weapons fall in the same category.
    These types of arguments seem to be coming from people who have trouble thinking between small scale and large scale, whether because caught up in an ideology, or because of some other mental reason. If the only issue with gun control, or car control, is how much death and destruction it causes, than the gun control strategy to pick is the one that reduces it the most, when all of the effects people describe are added together (more guns allowing more people to kill someone they would not have otherwise, vs. people being able to defend themselves, vs. people perhaps being more safety consious in general, vs. people being able to hunt food and not starve, etc. (As I go into wilder and wilder ones.))

  8. #158
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I was pointing out that taxes actually do come from people. Saying that it belongs to everyone doesn't erase the fact that a very small minority pays the vast majority of taxes thanks to progressive taxation.
    The people most screwed by progressive taxation are not those who pay the most, but rather the people on the borderline of that bracket, the upper middle class. The actually wealthy are mostly living off interest, trust disbursement and dividends, rather than the principal of their income. The upper middle class pays similar tax rates while still depending on their principal to make it through, as well as certain long-term debts. In other words: they have tax bills like the wealthy but not the deep investments to fall back on.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  9. #159
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I was simply pointing out that the police are necissary sometimes!
    Oh. Well, I already granted that. I would never advocate getting rid of police.

  10. #160
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    The money from taxes is, in a sense, people buying an army, roads, police, fire departments, etc., whereas money going to factories is most often simply for producing products, as a lot of people don't care enough to know how much pollution is being done, so it won't effect the decisions of people working at the business as much, depending on how much people do care. (to use the factory pollution example.).
    Here's something you may not have considered: Private industry drives our national economy. All government income comes from taxes levied on businesses, on trade, on sales, or on income, all of which depend on private enterprise. Furthermore, most of the income that provides for the needs of individuals and families also comes from private enterprise. That means mining, timber, manufacturing, technology, pharmaceuticals, sheer financial investment, all these business interests that many here consider evil.

    Take away the capacity for profit, and the entire economy (including government-provided services) grinds to a halt.

    I think it's probably a mistake to think that government is ever either more or less benevolent than industry. In recent years especially, they seem to be in league.

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