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Thread: Super Tuesday

  1. #141
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I realize that Herbert Hoover's work did fabulous things in other circumstances- Belgium, where he's still well loved, and with the Mississippi flood in 1927 (awesome PBS special on that by the way! ). It didn't do much for ameliorating the problems of the Great Depression though- Poor Hoover was in over his head there- he would have been a good president if given better circumstances, but his focus on the long run as opposed to focusing on the situation AT THAT MOMENT totally fucked him over. He probably would have happily gotten something done with the economy in 10 years or so while thousands of people starved to death.
    It was also a matter of bad timing, in my opinion. Hoover had to get over his own ideological flailing about before he could start seeing the "real" solutions to at least getting us intact through the crisis, and it did seem like he was starting to trend that way at the time of election, but FDR was ready sooner with a wider scoped vision that offered more hope. To be fair, though, Roosevelt had a few years of watching how not to do it before he had a chance to step in...

    [deleted long rant on the wonders of public education- whatever's mom is a teacher ]
    One of my jobs is working with an anti-bullying non-profit organization, so I've got plenty of rants/praises, especially on un(der)funded mandates to cash-strapped states and local districts.

    On the wider debate, I've always viewed government in a somewhat Hobbesian way, as a pragmatic institution that fills a void in providing security and necessary services in a "not too bad" way. Democracy in one form or another tends to be the "least bad" system on average, so I support it, but I don't get dewy eyed. One area the government fills in is keeping a wider view than any individual or company wants to. A company is quite capable of thinking long-range, but is narrow focused, while individuals simply don't have the clout themselves or the time to band together. A government, in its own bloated and inefficient way, can provide a wider view of "common good" than companies while having more authority than individuals.

    Where I toe a more conservative line is in the "how" of it. I believe that governments have a perfectly legitimate right to enforce the will of the people in regulations and codes of conduct, and even that they can move much quicker on emergency situations (see FEMA when organized right), but long-term, large scale federal programs tend to act as The Blob, taking on people for a good reason today and just keeping them around out of sheer apathy. This then leads to layers and layers of bueracrats whose sole existence is simply to exist, buried unnoticed in an insane tangle of accountability with utterly no transparency.

    Far better to take the route of incentivising private organizations and lower-level governments through funded mandates and government grants, with a thin, flat layer of federal bueracracy existing primarily to provide accountability for the programs and mandates. I have always believed that, since all politics are local, most programs should be as local as possible too. Now this isn't a rigid ideology, but my starting question always comes around to "why not do it this way?" If there's a valid answer, I'm always willing to take it into account.

    Oh and no unfunded mandates! If you can't fund your own orders, then what makes you think anyone below you can? Maybe there's a short term excuse for this, but in the long term all it does is pile up problems. If the budget can't afford it, try to raise taxes. If the public won't go for that, shuffle priorities. Pretending like its free just makes the problem worse, and borrowing for it just defers the cost until later. Pay up or shut up.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  2. #142
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Operator: Nine one one, what is your emergency?
    Caller: Oh my God! Somebody's breaking into my house! HE'S GOT A GUN!!!
    Operator: We'll have an officer there right away. Can you get out of the house?
    Caller: What I really need is someone to take my name and address, and file a report!
    Operator: Ma'am?
    Caller: Can your guys take a lot of crime scene photos too?
    Operator: Ma'am, it's a misdemeanor to misuse the 911 service...
    Caller: And yellow crime scene tape! They'll need a lot of crime scene ta... [BOOM BOOM BOOM!]
    Operator: Ma'am? Ma'am? Are you on the line? Ma'am?

    The moral of the story is, while cops do serve a necessary function, they're not enough. Officers serve with honor and distinction, but they cannot protect everyone. Individuals who are capable also need to know how to protect themselves.

    (whatever now hates ImNotTooPopular for introducing gun control into this whole debate :steam

    and what about the cases when the intruder is someone you know? There have been several instances of that happening in my area- people shooting thier own kids when they came in late and such

    not to mention the legal repercussions of shooting someone in your home :horor:
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #143
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever
    and what about the cases when the intruder is someone you know? There have been several instances of that happening in my area- people shooting thier own kids when they came in late and such
    Many people die in car accidents. Perhaps we should make cars illegal. Fast food leads to crippling obesity for many people. I guess we could make it illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever
    not to mention the legal repercussions of shooting someone in your home :horor:
    This is generally very small. "I was in fear of my life." End of story.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #144
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    and what about the cases when the intruder is someone you know? There have been several instances of that happening in my area- people shooting thier own kids when they came in late and such
    Well, there are plenty of people who have run over their own children with cars, but that's not an argument for everyone to walk everywhere they go. Every aspect of our lives is governed by a calculation of risk vs. reward. For most in the US, the reward of using cars is worth the risk to ourselves and others. For myself, self-defense weapons fall in the same category.

  5. #145
    Oberon
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    And oh, whatevs... like my new sig?

  6. #146
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    *shudder* yeah- unfunded mandates are EVIL especially in states where the governments are cutting way back on funding at the same time that the national government puts those mandates in place :steam:

    I come from a Rust Belt state, where I've grown up seeing the damage that factories and such do to the environment (not to mention farmers dumping pesticides into the creek and etc.) so I know first hand about the damage that companies are willing to do without a second thought- It's a good thing if some factories go above and beyond what they are required to do to keep the world livable for the rest of us to them! But I'm much more experienced with driving over a creek and seeing signs that say "Toxic: Do Not Touch The Water" and similar situations.

    The government has plenty of problems- it would be great if it could be more efficient and less bureaucratic- I got the joy of studying all of the paperwork and research that go into place to do the smallest thing involving federal dams a while back and my best friend works for the EPA, so I get an earful about that every week! I can't bring myself to trust a group of people who's primary objective is to earn money to take the best care of the rest of us though. My background can't allow that
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #147
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I can't bring myself to trust a group of people who's primary objective is to earn money to take the best care of the rest of us though. My background can't allow that.
    Exactly.

    Now tell my why it's different if the money comes from taxes.

  8. #148
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Many people die in car accidents. Perhaps we should make cars illegal. Fast food leads to crippling obesity for many people. I guess we could make it illegal.

    This is generally very small. "I was in fear of my life." End of story.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, there are plenty of people who have run over their own children with cars, but that's not an argument for everyone to walk everywhere they go. Every aspect of our lives is governed by a calculation of risk vs. reward. For most in the US, the reward of using cars is worth the risk to ourselves and others. For myself, self-defense weapons fall in the same category.
    this TOTALLY isn't what I was arguing! :steam: SEE why I already cursed about the fact that this topic was introduced? I was simply pointing out that the police are necissary sometimes! I don't see why I'm going to get stuck debating this now. Actually- I won't- it's too far off topic in an already derailed thread

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    And oh, whatevs... like my new sig?
    awesome
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #149
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Exactly.

    Now tell my why it's different if the money comes from taxes.
    because the taxes never belongs to anyone- it belongs to everyone for the good of everyone- not just to a small group of people like many corporate profits do!

    And I have to wonder- why do you always pick single sentances out of my posts to critique when the answer to your question was in that post?!?


    And I'm off to run some errands- not fleeing this debate!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #150
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    because the taxes never belongs to anyone- it belongs to everyone for the good of everyone- not just to a small group of people like many corporate profits do!
    Taxation is extortion of the willing.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

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