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Thread: Super Tuesday

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Galt View Post
    My Google adventure, as of now, has taken me to wikipedia and a white supremacist site. .

    I don't see how that is possible. Maybe your cookies led you there from previous searches or something.

  2. #112
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Galt View Post
    Those people are nuts. Anybody who thinks anarchism is the way to go is either extremely ignorant or extremely insane. I can't stand the government, but even I acknowledge that it is necessary for some things. The people who isolate themselves in the way you described are just as bad as the leeches I was referring to earlier.
    Uh huh.

    From the writings of Ayn Rand...

    The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man's rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.
    You can try to call them nuts, but they have fully embraced what it means to be an Objectivist. They argue that the government has no right make them pay taxes. They seek a fully capitalistic system, without any government regulation.

    But of course this is naive. Anyone with half a brain can realize that in Rand's ideal society, whoever controls the military, ultimately controls everything. But it is an easy fact to overlook when preaching the glory of individualist values.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #113
    Senior Member Mr Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You can try to call them nuts, but they have fully embraced what it means to be an Objectivist. They argue that the government has no right make them pay taxes. They seek a fully capitalistic system, without any government regulation.
    The difference is that Objectivists aren't people who would live in a cabin all alone doing nothing. Part of Objectivism is a strong will to DO something.

    But of course this is naive. Anyone with half a brain can realize that in Rand's ideal society, whoever controls the military, ultimately controls everything. But it is an easy fact to overlook when preaching the glory of individualist values.
    Whoever controls the military ALWAYS controls everything. If the military suddenly began attacking the rest of the country, we would be a military dictatorship in minutes. It's another one of those necessary evils.

    I don't see how that is possible. Maybe your cookies led you there from previous searches or something.
    Although I'm sure that was intended as a stab at my character, I'll ignore that fact and say that your guess is as good as mine.
    But sir, your opinion is wrong.
    TANSTAAFL!

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Galt View Post
    The difference is that Objectivists aren't people who would live in a cabin all alone doing nothing. Part of Objectivism is a strong will to DO something.
    Yeah! To convert other people to objectivism! I'm simply pointing out where this road you are following is going to lead you. Just go to INTJ Central and you will meet plenty of them.

    Whoever controls the military ALWAYS controls everything. If the military suddenly began attacking the rest of the country, we would be a military dictatorship in minutes. It's another one of those necessary evils.
    It sounds to me like you really don't embrace Ayn Rand. More like you are looking for a reason to rebel. I was a bit of a libertarian when I was younger, but I grew out of it as soon as I realized all it was, was wishful thinking and a rationalized excuse to act egocentric.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Galt View Post
    Although I'm sure that was intended as a stab at my character, I'll ignore that fact and say that your guess is as good as mine.
    It wasn't. I have gotten weird results on my ads and such from very ordinary searches.

  6. #116
    Senior Member Mr Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Yeah! To convert other people to objectivism! I'm simply pointing out where this road you are following is going to lead you.
    No. Not quite.

    It sounds to me like you really don't embrace Ayn Rand. More like you are looking for a reason to rebel. I was a bit of a libertarian when I was young, but I grew out of it as soon as I realized all it was, was wishful thinking and a rationalized excuse to act egocentric.
    I don't need an excuse to be egocentric

    I find myself agreeing with much of what she said. I'm not her disciple. However, the intention of Objectivism is definitely not imperialism. It's capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It wasn't. I have gotten weird results on my ads and such from very ordinary searches.
    It's a good thing I ignored it then. My Google ads tend to think I'm a homosexual who watches Bill O'Reilly and wants to lose weight. In case you were wondering, that's a bit off.
    But sir, your opinion is wrong.
    TANSTAAFL!

  7. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    and why should you think that it's fair that some people just get to glide through life when some of the rest of us have to fight every inch of the way and not ever end up as well off? This sort of thing never fails to confuse me... if higher education was free and things of that sort it would make things somewhat more fair overall, but I just can't understand why people would consider it fair that I work 2 jobs while I'm a full time student just to get by and will still end up paying back loans while other people's parents just pay for them. And I know that there are plenty of people who are worse off than me

    I'll never be willing to write off anyone as deserving to have to work signifigantly harder to get anywhere in life
    It's not fair. But it's equally not fair to take away things from people that have earned them so that it can be a little easier for you. Is it not the right of parents that have made something of themselves to educate their children the best that they can? Some people are just better off than others. It's not that anyone DESERVES to have to work harder. It's just their lot. There doesn't have to be a value judgement attached.

    And if higher education was free, the only net result would be a lot more people with useless degrees that can't get a job.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    It's not fair. But it's equally not fair to take away things from people that have earned them so that it can be a little easier for you. Is it not the right of parents that have made something of themselves to educate their children the best that they can? Some people are just better off than others. It's not that anyone DESERVES to have to work harder. It's just their lot. There doesn't have to be a value judgement attached.

    And if higher education was free, the only net result would be a lot more people with useless degrees that can't get a job.
    I disagree. Ultimately it all comes down to empathy versus logic.

    Those of us who can understand another person's feelings by imagining their situation, just are not impressed with the logical assessment that the only person who matters is yourself. The reality is that people need people to survive, and so it is in our self interest to see to the welfare of one another. Ultimately those who do not realize this and who devalue their fellow human beings will take pride in their selfishness. "I earned it, I deserve to keep it" is a perfectly reasonable belief, but there is just something inhuman about those who have no desire whatsoever to share what they have for the sake of making the world a better place for everyone. It's for that reason I cringe when I hear the word "objectivist" because it has nothing to do with being human and everything to do with being autonomous. To me, a social animal, who has both the capacities of feeling and reason, such a pursuit seems utterly meaningless. But for some reason, many of those of the INTX mentality seem happy to pursue this quest to be something less than human; something that resembles a machine driven only for self preservation and production.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  9. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I disagree. Ultimately it all comes down to empathy versus logic.

    Those of us who can understand another person's feelings by imagining their situation, just are not impressed with the logical assessment that the only person who matters is yourself. The reality is that people need people to survive, and so it is in our self interest to see to the welfare of one another. Ultimately those who do not realize this and who devalue their fellow human beings will take pride in their selfishness. "I earned it, I deserve to keep it" is a perfectly reasonable belief, but there is just something inhuman about those who have no desire whatsoever to share what they have for the sake of making the world a better place for everyone. It's for that reason I cringe when I hear the word "objectivist" because it has nothing to do with being human and everything to do with being autonomous. To me, a social animal, who has both the capacities of feeling and reason, such a pursuit seems utterly meaningless. But for some reason, many of those of the INTX mentality seem happy to pursue this quest to be something less than human; something that resembles a machine driven only for self preservation and production.
    I take issue with the assumption that my statements above can be interepreted as "the only person that matters is yourself". I just think you need to have a compelling reason to take things away from people in the name of equity, and "I have to work harder than you to have the same life" isn't compelling in the least. I certainly wasn't born to privilege and I'm still paying off grad school at age 37...but I don't think anyone owes me something just because their family has had it better. I was always taught that if you want something, you have to work for it.

    I actually agree with you on a personal level. But I don't believe that it's the government's place to to try to negotiate the choppy waters of redistribution of wealth. I believe that such things should be given freely, not seized. I have a strong belief in personal charity, and I think it's ethically incumbent on the wealthy to give a little back and help his fellow man. I know that sounds ridiculously naive, and maybe it is. But it's the only path that morally makes sense to me on all sides.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  10. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    But for some reason, many of those of the INTX mentality seem happy to pursue this quest to be something less than human; something that resembles a machine driven only for self preservation and production.
    I think the picture many people have of this "enlightened self-interest" is a "straw man." It is a caricature that is easy to dismiss out-of-hand--A greed driven individual focused only on preserving themselves and defeating all competitors is a far cry from what I believe self-interest is.

    The caricature on the other side is that of the Borg from Star Trek. "You shall be assimilated." You're own individuality is stripped to become a look-alike, act-alike drone meant only to serve the collective. Individuals are expendable, like they were mere appendages. We can think of a hive of insects.

    Both these are undesirable. I like the 3-musketeers motto. "All for one, and one for all."

    But it is more than just a motto for me. Thriving individuals, star performers, "great" people are all signs of a thriving society, a great team, and an enlightened time. It is not an either-or situation, rather something that comes together. It is not a choice between (a) sacrifice the individuals for a better society and (b) sacrifice society for our own interests.

    For me, the natural, and most obvious choice is to (c) allow individuals to thrive to create a thriving society.

    People who see their self-interest as being at odds with societal interest are missing something (unfortunately in an unregulated free market they can get away with their impulses). They are not seeing clearly and creatively. The same is true for those see societal interests as being at odds with allowing individuals to be free.

    The fact are:
    (1) a market where corruption is prosecuted, and swindlers are punished is more likely to be efficient and have better liquidity.
    (2) Regulated consumption/production, planned economies, lack of freedom to assemble or speak freely, etc. lead to poorer quality of life and worse living conditions for the population at large. In fact, I would say when individuals are required to submit to the "collective," the tendency is for the collective to actually become a handful of despots.

    I would say greed and collectivism go more together than greed and self-interest, if for no other reason than a checks-and-balances system due to the greed being open, instead of behind closed doors.

    IMO Kiddo, if we privatized social work, the social work would likely become more efficient, and you are likely to get paid more (that's the alchemy of a good functioning market, an increase in gross production). The problem however, is that you will need some creative entrepreneurs to come up with proper business models to have social-work businesses be successful in the market place. The government would likely have to come up with a proper way to monetize the externalities of social-work and still have to regulate it to make sure there isn't corruption, human rights violations, or abuses of privileges. A government with fewer things on its plate would be able to eliminate corruption more easily.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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