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  1. #21
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Yes, once we're all dead.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Discobiscuit is correct in that it’s built into us as a species. The thing is that feudalism merely existed amongst capitalism in the first place. You would still pay the local black smith to forge the shoes of your horse, even amidst your work-safety exchange between you and the lord of your fief. Capitalism has always existed, first in the form of bartering and then in the form of minted monetary exchange. Even small children will barter off the candy to receive more chips and chimpanzees have been shown removing the scabs off of each other in exchange for prostitution.
    So you believe that capitalism is synonymous with all social exchange per se? Do you believe then that the economy in any particular epoch is a greater or lesser approximation of or conforms more closely to this "natural" exchange than any other and why?

  3. #23
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So you believe that capitalism is synonymous with all social exchange per se? Do you believe then that the economy in any particular epoch is a greater or lesser approximation of or conforms more closely to this "natural" exchange than any other and why?
    Yes, and I’d imagine that the bartering system, especially one in which a service is offered for the benefit of two individuals, is the most "natural" of financial systems. Bartering in itself is perhaps the oldest economic system, while the trade of minted currency in modern capitalism is more sophisticated and requires more abstract thought behind it. It requires the trader to see a piece of paper, not as a piece of paper but as equal to the value of a cow, because the trader is aware that other individuals see it as equal to the value of cow. Currency represents the absolute value of an item or service as an abstract concept without necessarily discussing the value between the two parties. It’s implied and the value is widely agreed upon. In bartering you can trade a cow for a horse without understanding what the cow is worth in comparison to anything else.

    I’ve mentioned that offering a service (prostitution, pest disposal, business advisement) is the most primal out of the economic systems since its age far outstrips that of the human species. Any symbiotic relationship in which both parties are aware of the benefit that they’re receiving from the other is a primitive form of bartering capitalism. The crocodile that allows the plover bird to remove pests from its body in exchange for a meal is engaging an exchange of commodities. And of course there’s the example that I listed earlier of chimpanzee prostitution.

    From Most “Natural” To Most Sophisticated:

    Exchange of Services – observed by several non-human animals
    Exchange of Physical Goods – few animals are seen gathering items with the intent of selling them as humans do
    Trade of Specific Valuable Items – stereotypically gold, diamonds, rubies, etc. The value is implicitly and widely agreed upon.
    Trade of Minted Currency – the most difficult of commodities to counterfeit; valuable items specifically made with this purpose in mind
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  4. #24
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Everything has an expiration date.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Yes, and I’d imagine that the bartering system, especially one in which a service is offered for the benefit of two individuals, is the most "natural" of financial systems. Bartering in itself is perhaps the oldest economic system, while the trade of minted currency in modern capitalism is more sophisticated and requires more abstract thought behind it. It requires the trader to see a piece of paper, not as a piece of paper but as equal to the value of a cow, because the trader is aware that other individuals see it as equal to the value of cow. Currency represents the absolute value of an item or service as an abstract concept without necessarily discussing the value between the two parties. It’s implied and the value is widely agreed upon. In bartering you can trade a cow for a horse without understanding what the cow is worth in comparison to anything else.

    I’ve mentioned that offering a service (prostitution, pest disposal, business advisement) is the most primal out of the economic systems since its age far outstrips that of the human species. Any symbiotic relationship in which both parties are aware of the benefit that they’re receiving from the other is a primitive form of bartering capitalism. The crocodile that allows the plover bird to remove pests from its body in exchange for a meal is engaging an exchange of commodities. And of course there’s the example that I listed earlier of chimpanzee prostitution.

    From Most “Natural” To Most Sophisticated:

    Exchange of Services – observed by several non-human animals
    Exchange of Physical Goods – few animals are seen gathering items with the intent of selling them as humans do
    Trade of Specific Valuable Items – stereotypically gold, diamonds, rubies, etc. The value is implicitly and widely agreed upon.
    Trade of Minted Currency – the most difficult of commodities to counterfeit; valuable items specifically made with this purpose in mind
    Capitalism is different too though in so far as it has a collectivising or social economic element which previous economies or social orders did not, the relationship towards authorities or the privileged in feudalism or merchantilism was different to that of the capitalist economy because individuals where able to preserve a far greater sembalence or actual independence from one another, there are more employees than ever, weather they are public or privately employed is, to me, largely besides the point, they dont possess the means to be independent and self-sufficient.

    That objective reality is treated differently by different theoriest, radical capitalists suggest that its only state directed or phony-capitalism which results in that dependency (although some of them also suggest that it is caused by over population too), while socialists think that its capitalism per se which causes that trend and when no one can any longer believe they have any kind of objective independence they'll want to change the economic and political system to guarantee as something everyone experiences as opposed to a select wealthy minority.

  6. #26
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Capitalism is different too though in so far as it has a collectivising or social economic element which previous economies or social orders did not, the relationship towards authorities or the privileged in feudalism or merchantilism was different to that of the capitalist economy because individuals where able to preserve a far greater sembalence or actual independence from one another, there are more employees than ever, weather they are public or privately employed is, to me, largely besides the point, they dont possess the means to be independent and self-sufficient.

    That objective reality is treated differently by different theoriest, radical capitalists suggest that its only state directed or phony-capitalism which results in that dependency (although some of them also suggest that it is caused by over population too), while socialists think that its capitalism per se which causes that trend and when no one can any longer believe they have any kind of objective independence they'll want to change the economic and political system to guarantee as something everyone experiences as opposed to a select wealthy minority.
    I don't believe there to be such a thing as phony capitalism. Capitalism is inherently a vague term with several differing definitions. The only point of reference between those definitions is in the fact that the means of production within an economy are owned by individual parties, and not by the government. I would say the fact that there are more employees than managers and self employed individuals is due more to human nature than anything else. It’s a cliché, but human beings are inherently social animals and following a leader and interacting in groups is the natural response for most parties. In short, there are more natural employees than entrepreneurs and when people are given a convenient means to do so, as is common within the 21st century 1st world, they will gravitate into those positions instead of the later. Hence why independent farmers have only been the status quo in 3rd world and pre-industrial countries with 3rd world living standards.

    I disagree with your statement on feudalism in that the flaws of modern capitalism seem to be merely enhanced in such a system. People were not independent; they were completely dependent upon their feudal lords for protection from barbarians and rogues, and due to the fact that most people remained within extremely close quarters of their birthplace, also had to maintain popularity and conformity among their peers, since everyone was aware of your record and social ostracism during that period could mean death.

    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    Everything has an expiration date.
    When humanity and all sentient beings that psychologically resemble humanity die out then capitalism too may expire.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  7. #27
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    I don't believe there to be such a thing as phony capitalism. Capitalism is inherently a vague term with several differing definitions. The only point of reference between those definitions is in the fact that the means of production within an economy are owned by individual parties, and not by the government. I would say the fact that there are more employees than managers and self employed individuals is due more to human nature than anything else. It’s a cliché, but human beings are inherently social animals and following a leader and interacting in groups is the natural response for most parties. In short, there are more natural employees than entrepreneurs and when people are given a convenient means to do so, as is common within the 21st century 1st world, they will gravitate into those positions instead of the later. Hence why independent farmers have only been the status quo in 3rd world and pre-industrial countries with 3rd world living standards.

    I disagree with your statement on feudalism in that the flaws of modern capitalism seem to be merely enhanced in such a system. People were not independent; they were completely dependent upon their feudal lords for protection from barbarians and rogues, and due to the fact that most people remained within extremely close quarters of their birthplace, also had to maintain popularity and conformity among their peers, since everyone was aware of your record and social ostracism during that period could mean death.


    When humanity and all sentient beings that psychologically resemble humanity die out then capitalism too may expire.
    I dont believe that capitalism exists because of human nature and I call that a naturalistic fallacy if there ever was one, the main division when using the word capitalism or capitalist is whether its being applied positively or negatively, its still hard to find its application purely descriptively.

    What I mean about dependency and independence is that in all earlier, pre-modern if you like as opposed to pre-capitalist because you think that capitalism is perrenial and natural, individuals where self-supporting and subsisting, exchange took place with surpluses, with the passage of time there has been greater and greater social combinations to increase that surplus but only with urbanism and industrial revolution did it take on such a rapid and collectivising character.

    Smith observed the deskilling and piece working of pin factories and decided that the division of labour in this fashion increased output ten fold and that it was the distinguishing factor as opposed to earlier norms, I think he was right but it has created a situation in which many dont have resources or resourcefulness beyond visiting a supermarket, shopping mall or fast food outlet. That is fundamentally different from Feudalism and totally and utterly removed from the neo-classical economic/ideological precepts and norms of independent rugged individualism.

  8. #28
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe that capitalism exists because of human nature and I call that a naturalistic fallacy if there ever was one, the main division when using the word capitalism or capitalist is whether its being applied positively or negatively, its still hard to find its application purely descriptively.
    No. A naturalistic fallacy or an appeal to nature would imply that capitalism is “good” because it is natural. I simply stated that capitalism is practiced due to human nature; whether it’s ethical or not has absolutely nothing to do with it.

    What I mean about dependency and independence is that in all earlier, pre-modern if you like as opposed to pre-capitalist because you think that capitalism is perrenial and natural, individuals where self-supporting and subsisting, exchange took place with surpluses, with the passage of time there has been greater and greater social combinations to increase that surplus but only with urbanism and industrial revolution did it take on such a rapid and collectivising character.
    Originally, when you used the word “independent” I assumed that you meant that they were free of authoritarian control or at the very least not dependent upon the support of other human beings. But I don’t see any importance in it if you’re using the definition described in post #27. Nor do I see how it’s at all relevant if an IT technician can milk a cow. Or why by any means anyone would want to return to such a pre-industrial state in which people had no time to specialize.

    Smith observed the deskilling and piece working of pin factories and decided that the division of labour in this fashion increased output ten fold and that it was the distinguishing factor as opposed to earlier norms, I think he was right but it has created a situation in which many dont have resources or resourcefulness beyond visiting a supermarket, shopping mall or fast food outlet. That is fundamentally different from Feudalism and totally and utterly removed from the neo-classical economic/ideological precepts and norms of independent rugged individualism.
    Again, the ”resourcefulness” that you mentioned existed during a period in which literacy was at an all time low and in which scientific and medical knowledge extended to “allowing God to take his course”. I see no reason to idealize such a past and many of the skills that were practiced then are simply not useful in the modern world.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  9. #29
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    No. A naturalistic fallacy or an appeal to nature would imply that capitalism is “good” because it is natural. I simply stated that capitalism is practiced due to human nature; whether it’s ethical or not has absolutely nothing to do with it.


    Originally, when you used the word “independent” I assumed that you meant that they were free of authoritarian control or at the very least not dependent upon the support of other human beings. But I don’t see any importance in it if you’re using the definition described in post #27. Nor do I see how it’s at all relevant if an IT technician can milk a cow. Or why by any means anyone would want to return to such a pre-industrial state in which people had no time to specialize.


    Again, the ”resourcefulness” that you mentioned existed during a period in which literacy was at an all time low and in which scientific and medical knowledge extended to “allowing God to take his course”. I see no reason to idealize such a past and many of the skills that were practiced then are simply not useful in the modern world.
    I'm not really sure where this discussion is going so I'm going to end it here, it feels like you're just being contrary now, if that isnt the case then I'm sure you could explain it but I'm going to stop speaking to you now.

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