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  1. #51
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's nothing but partisan rubbish. I'm not bothering to read the rest.
    'Partisan' in what way? The article could possibly be called elitist or ideological, but hardly partisan-check the author's bio.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    'Partisan' in what way? The article could possibly be called elitist or ideological, but hardly partisan-check the author's bio.
    Terms like "hard left" are pejorative in the US. Throwing around such terms haphazardly is typical partisan behavior. The purpose is to evoke an emotional response. I wouldn't even call Assange "hard left". Anyone who calls him that hasn't even bothered to understand the man's position. He has more in common with hardcore libertarians than the left wing.

    Beside all of that, look at the title of the article. The tone is something along the lines of "na-na na-na boo-boo, your plan backfired".
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #53
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Beargryllz;1402551So, what they're saying is that it is better to operate with deceit to maintain a false appearance of cordiality than to operate with honesty and transparency?

    I do not agree with this sentiment. Furthermore, I would argue that this entirely undermines a key component of democracy, one where participants in the process of governing are thoroughly informed of the reality of any given situation to create a genuine resolution, rather than a fantasy world of lies.[/QUOTE]

    1.) In foreign affairs? Yes. Its ironic that many people who share your view also (rightly) criticized the Bush administration for unnecessarily alienating allies and provoking non-allies by doing pretty much what you advocate (in terms of means rather than ends).

    2.) I would prefer that elected officials posses the tools necessary to accomplish foreign policy goals they were elected to pursue; if the leaks were confined to exposing government efforts to do the opposite of what they said they were going to do (in terms of the American electorate, not foreign governments), then this would be whistle-blowing-instead, this qualifies as national sabotage.

  4. #54
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    Certain things must be kept secret.

    But we keep way too much secret now just because it is evidence of gov't stupidity.

  5. #55
    morose bourgeoisie
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    radical honesty is temporary pain. Too bad Assange will go away forever over this. Assuming he isn't a sexual predator, in which case he'll go away for another reason, with similar results.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    "The essential tool of State Department diplomacy is trust between American officials and their foreign counterparts. Unlike the Pentagon which has military forces, or the Treasury Department which has financial tools, the State Department functions mainly by winning the trust of foreign officials, sharing information, and persuading. Those discussions have to be confidential to be successful. Destroying confidentiality means destroying diplomacy."

    So, what they're saying is that it is better to operate with deceit to maintain a false appearance of cordiality than to operate with honesty and transparency? I do not agree with this sentiment. Furthermore, I would argue that this entirely undermines a key component of democracy, one where participants in the process of governing are thoroughly informed of the reality of any given situation to create a genuine resolution, rather than a fantasy world of lies.
    Not every state is a democracy and not every democracy is a good democracy, even the good democracies value privilege and interest above democracy or even decency, so when you are dealing with that how would you wish to act? Like a sucker?

    There's hardly a successful state or economy which is honest and transparent with its own constituencies, public or participants let alone trying to institute it as a principle of diplomatic accord.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'd say again that I think this is a massive exercise in US state dissemination of information or opinion forming, its not that long ago that it was news to people that the US "seeded" news stories in foreign english speaking presses to convince home constituencies of the stories veracity given their skepticism about US medias. This is the same thing.

  8. #58

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    The UN allegations are interesting. I was surprised I heard no one even try to defend them or say they were untrue. They seemed to just dodge the subject. The US showed little respect for the UN before the Iraq war, so it's not surprising in that sense, but for a key vote holder to be secretly spying on top officials and trying to gain their credit card numbers, etc. sort of needs some explaining. I'm wondering how it will pan out.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  9. #59
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    When I read what was leaked I was shocked at how not especially important or surprising a lot of it is. Who cares!

  10. #60
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    I downloaded the cables as well as Julian's 'insurance' file today. Rape is a serious crime and it should be investigated. But I reckon Julian Assange is probably the most sought after man in the world right now, and I can imagine US secret service being behind these allegations.
    (removed)

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