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  1. #1
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Default Vatican changes condom policy.

    http://www.wisn.com/r/25888643/detail.html

    Good news. The pope changed Catholic policy for the use of condoms. They're now considered a lesser evil than giving your partner AIDS. Something I already knew for quite some while. But I'm glad the pope took my advice on the matter and helped make the world a slightly safer place for 1.1 billion people.
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  2. #2
    Sniffles
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    Yes Shimmy, the Pope listened to your advice - hope you're happy. :rolli:

  3. #3
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes Shimmy, the Pope listened to your advice - hope you're happy. :rolli:
    Your tone makes you sound unhappy. Do you disagree with this change?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Your tone makes you sound unhappy. Do you disagree with this change?
    More irritated actually, because as usual plenty of horseshit is thrown around about what the Pope actually said and the full implications of this. Papal pronouncements on issues cannot readily be reduced to soundbites without distorting it. For one thing, NOTHING in Catholic teachings on condoms has actually changed, in fact a formal pronouncement of Catholic teachings wasn't even made - as explained here by Dr. Janet E. Smith:
    Is Pope Benedict indicating that heterosexuals who have HIV could reduce the wrongness of their acts by using condoms? No. In his second answer he says that the Church does not find condoms to be a “real or moral solution.” That means the Church does not find condoms either to be moral or an effective way of fighting the transmission of HIV. As the Holy Father indicates in his fuller answer, the most effective portion of programs designed to reduce the transmission of HIV are calls to abstinence and fidelity.

    The Holy Father, again, is saying that the intention to reduce the transmission of any infection is a “first step” in a movement towards a more human way of living sexuality. That more human way would be to do nothing that threatens to harm one’s sexual partner, who should be one’s beloved spouse. For an individual with HIV to have sexual intercourse with or without a condom is to risk transmitting a lethal disease.

    http://www.catholicworldreport.com/i...2010&Itemid=70
    He's not actually endorsing the use of condoms or anything of that nature.

  5. #5
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post

    Good news. The pope changed Catholic policy for the use of condoms. They're now considered a lesser evil than giving your partner AIDS.
    *snerk*

    In all seriousness, though, yeah, this is good news.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  6. #6
    morose bourgeoisie
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    That means the Church does not find condoms either to be moral or an effective way of fighting the transmission of HIV.
    the articles below all say that condoms are a highly successful strategy for preventing the spread of STD's including HIV:

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/prevention.htm
    http://aids.about.com/od/hivprevention/a/hivprevent.htm
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/condoms/MY01061

    Where does the Pope get his information? To say that condoms aren't moral is a subjective judgement, but their effectiveness at preventing the spread of disease is verifiable. I guess the Vatican's crack team of scientists came to a different conclusion than all of those athiest (or protestant) scientists.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    To say that condoms aren't moral is a subjective judgement, but their effectiveness at preventing the spread of disease is verifiable.
    Morality isn't a subjective matter, but the effectiveness of condoms has been questioned, particularly by Dr Norman Hearst's report "Condom promotion for AIDS prevention in the developing world: is it working?", which notes that in countries like Uganda, reducing the number of sexual partners among those infected has proven more effective than simply distributing condoms.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I dont understand why this is being treated as "Good News" by people who arent Roman Catholics and who arent going to be any less critical of Roman Catholicism today than yesterday, I think its really being welcomed because, wrongly, its being perceived as a moral win or victory for the opponents of Roman Catholicism in a "Told you so" or "Get with the times" sense.

    Which is unsurprising really and also unfortunate but also probably as big a reason for the Church not engaging in dialogue about what its teaching actually is or seeking to clarify it as anything else, I'm sure its a bigger reason than the standard accusation that the Church will not clarify or dialogue on its faith and morals teaching because it assumes that the laity, clergy or public are ignoramuses.

    Years ago I spoke to the Jesuits in Dublin about this, one of whom was a theologian, very, very smart guy, conservative/traditionalist in his liturgy and open about matters of faith and morals in a way that I'm sure most liberals or critics of the RC church would be unprepared for.

    He suggested that the Church's teachings about condoms was actually a straight forward statement of fact, there isnt a condom company in the world which would suggest that it is a 100% fail safe either in preventing the spread of AIDS or preventing conception, you can actually bet on that because those guys would be crying it from the roof tops to improve their sales figures if they where confident of it and sure they'd not have any law suits as a consequence.

    However, the RC church making a statement of fact in that respect and a condom company doing so would be treated very differently by the critics in question. The actual issue is not one about the efficacy of condoms but, generally, about permissiveness, which the RCC is pretty clear on, advocating celibacy, monogamy, fidelity and heterosexuality.

    He and another Jesuit also would state that judgements needed to be made on a case by case basis, that while it could be possible to say as a general rule or principle or precept such and such was the case that the Church does not deny exceptions or special circumstances, it also is duty bound to support a spirit of forgiveness and acknowledge that no one is without sin or nature inclined towards sinfulness. All in all that puts an incredibly different complection on things to what has been most often said about the Church and its teaching and papal statements on those teachings.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    More irritated actually, because as usual plenty of horseshit is thrown around about what the Pope actually said and the full implications of this. Papal pronouncements on issues cannot readily be reduced to soundbites without distorting it. For one thing, NOTHING in Catholic teachings on condoms has actually changed, in fact a formal pronouncement of Catholic teachings wasn't even made - as explained here by Dr. Janet E. Smith:

    He's not actually endorsing the use of condoms or anything of that nature.
    I don't see anything in the article that claims he's endorsing the use of condoms. All I see is that he said it's "less evil" than infecting people with AIDS. That doesn't sound like an endorsement to me any more than saying a meal didn't make you vomit is an endorsement.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #10
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Morality isn't a subjective matter, but the effectiveness of condoms has been questioned, particularly by Dr Norman Hearst's report "Condom promotion for AIDS prevention in the developing world: is it working?", which notes that in countries like Uganda, reducing the number of sexual partners among those infected has proven more effective than simply distributing condoms.
    The possibility that another practice is more effective does not mean that condoms are not effective. Logic 101. Come on.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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