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  1. #11
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    Of course we could just change laws in African countries and make rape a crime, that would help too.

  2. #12
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't see anything in the article that claims he's endorsing the use of condoms. All I see is that he said it's "less evil" than infecting people with AIDS. That doesn't sound like an endorsement to me any more than saying a meal didn't make you vomit is an endorsement.
    As for me.. The article never claimed this.. but I feel like the OP does. My immediate reaction/translation of the OP's statement is "Finally the RC Church acknowledged that condoms work." I don't think I'm very far-fetched in getting that translation out of the OP's tone and words.

    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    That means the Church does not find condoms either to be moral or an effective way of fighting the transmission of HIV.
    the articles below all say that condoms are a highly successful strategy for preventing the spread of STD's including HIV:

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/prevention.htm
    http://aids.about.com/od/hivprevention/a/hivprevent.htm
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/condoms/MY01061

    Where does the Pope get his information? To say that condoms aren't moral is a subjective judgement, but their effectiveness at preventing the spread of disease is verifiable. I guess the Vatican's crack team of scientists came to a different conclusion than all of those athiest (or protestant) scientists.
    To be precise, calling it a lesser evil is like saying stealing a Tonka truck from a little kid is better than grand theft auto.

    If I'm not mistaken, The church is saying their policy already accurately prevents disease, so to endorse condoms fully would mean that this solution is just as effective as their current policy. I guarantee you it is not. Ask any sex educator the most reliable solution for preventing STDs, and if they don't tell you abstinence they're off their rockers. The church teaching abstinence, followed by fidelity, is a sure-fire way, and coincides with their morals accurately.

    I hear people all the time complain about them simply because they don't "feel as good" or "its not as intimate" (not mentioning any forum members names -.-) and that's their excuse for not using them. Condoms are not a good solution.. they're just better than nothing. The best solution is not always the most desired one by people.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes Shimmy, the Pope listened to your advice - hope you're happy. :rolli:
    I'm happy (or sometimes unhappy) regardless of what the pope says or does. But thanks for taking the bait. As you know I'm quite anti-religious, so I hope you're not too surprised by my sarcastic OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    More irritated actually, because as usual plenty of horseshit is thrown around about what the Pope actually said and the full implications of this. Papal pronouncements on issues cannot readily be reduced to soundbites without distorting it. For one thing, NOTHING in Catholic teachings on condoms has actually changed, in fact a formal pronouncement of Catholic teachings wasn't even made - as explained here by Dr. Janet E. Smith:

    He's not actually endorsing the use of condoms or anything of that nature.
    Form is function, regardless of what scripture says, the fact that the pope made a statement like this rather than the incorrect statement: "If you believe in god, you've got nothing to fear from AIDS", or the malicious: "AIDS is gods punishment for being gay." (To be honest, I've never heard the pope say these statements. But others have said them).


    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Morality isn't a subjective matter, but the effectiveness of condoms has been questioned, particularly by Dr Norman Hearst's report "Condom promotion for AIDS prevention in the developing world: is it working?", which notes that in countries like Uganda, reducing the number of sexual partners among those infected has proven more effective than simply distributing condoms.
    That particular article isn't really an arguement for your case, now is it?

    Quoted from the article: "Condoms have produced substantial benefit in countries like Thailand, where both transmission and condom promotion are concentrated in the area of commercial sex."

    Quoted from the article: "Recommendations include increased condom promotion for groups at high risk, more rigorous measurement of the impact of condom promotion, and more research on how best to integrate condom promotion with other prevention strategies."

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    As for me.. The article never claimed this.. but I feel like the OP does. My immediate reaction/translation of the OP's statement is "Finally the RC Church acknowledged that condoms work." I don't think I'm very far-fetched in getting that translation out of the OP's tone and words.



    To be precise, calling it a lesser evil is like saying stealing a Tonka truck from a little kid is better than grand theft auto.

    If I'm not mistaken, The church is saying their policy already accurately prevents disease, so to endorse condoms fully would mean that this solution is just as effective as their current policy. I guarantee you it is not. Ask any sex educator the most reliable solution for preventing STDs, and if they don't tell you abstinence they're off their rockers. The church teaching abstinence, followed by fidelity, is a sure-fire way, and coincides with their morals accurately.

    I hear people all the time complain about them simply because they don't "feel as good" or "its not as intimate" (not mentioning any forum members names -.-) and that's their excuse for not using them. Condoms are not a good solution.. they're just better than nothing. The best solution is not always the most desired one by people.
    You're absolutely correct on thinking I was trying to get that message across.

    I also agree with you that the best solution is not always the most desired one. Driving a car is even more likely to kill you than unsafe sex, but if you are driving, make sure you wear your seatbelt.
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  4. #14
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    Thank God the Church changes her mind. For in about 1904 the Pope declared Modernism to be a heresy. That means that liberal democracy and the enlightenment were a heresy. But when the liberal democracies won the wars against fascism, the Church opportunely changed her mind.

    And when the enlightenment proved to be an overwhelming success with science, technology and utilitarianism, the Church saw the writing on the wall and adopted the doctrine of Faith and Reason.

    So when the facts change, the Church changes her mind.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    This change smells like a 'Catholicism Wow!' campaign.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    This change smells like a 'Catholicism Wow!' campaign.
    ?????

  7. #17
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    Are they saying that married couples can use them? They aren't trying to prevent AIDs moreso than a 10th kid.

    The more they say on the topic the less freedom they're actually suggesting.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ?????
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyYCxz_Ao5g"]Dogma[/YOUTUBE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyYCxz_Ao5g"]Dogma[/YOUTUBE]
    Yeah, except that's fiction, this isnt a campaign (at least not by the RCC) and I'm not sure what you meant anyway.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, except that's fiction, this isnt a campaign (at least not by the RCC) [...]
    Are you suggesting George Carlin was not a cardinal? Do you believe the holy mother church does not use propaganda?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure what you meant anyway.
    The pope gives a series of interviews - the first ever given by a pope, mind you - in which he says some populist things (good condoms, bad holocaust deniers, bad child abusers). In spite of all the muttering, I strongly doubt that much will change: but it looks nice, like Buddy Christ.

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