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  1. #31
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    There is nothing problematic about believing in fairness.
    There is when it borders on the resentful. What's fair about that?
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  2. #32
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    There is nothing problematic about believing in fairness.
    What is this "fairness" of which you speak? When did it ever happen that nobody was born with advantages or disadvantages with respect to others? That all were born alike, with equal ability, equal talent, equal beauty, equal wealth, equal intelligence?

    This thing, the absence of which you complain of so bitterly, has never existed since Man first learned to use a rock as a hammer. That being the case, is your resentment against the world's lack of justice a legitimate complaint... or is it rather a shield that you can cower behind, hoping to be spared from any kind of personal responsibility?

  3. #33
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    There is when it borders on the resentful. What's fair about that?
    You can't be resentful toward unfairness?

    I suppose a more direct interpretation is that resenting unfairness is problematic. That might be correct. But what does one get from holding no resentment toward unfairness?

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    What is this "fairness" of which you speak? When did it ever happen that nobody was born with advantages or disadvantages with respect to others? That all were born alike, with equal ability, equal talent, equal beauty, equal wealth, equal intelligence?
    Easy shot back here.

    When did it ever happen the wealth related to a person's merits?

    I for one don't think we are all the same, or even equal per se. But I don't think personal wealth is remotely close to an indicator of where everyone stands in relation to each other.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    What is this "fairness" of which you speak? When did it ever happen that nobody was born with advantages or disadvantages with respect to others? That all were born alike, with equal ability, equal talent, equal beauty, equal wealth, equal intelligence?

    This thing, the absence of which you complain of so bitterly, has never existed since Man first learned to use a rock as a hammer. That being the case, is your resentment against the world's lack of justice a legitimate complaint... or is it rather a shield that you can cower behind, hoping to be spared from any kind of personal responsibility?
    If the concept of people being unsatisfied with unfairness had never existed there would be no United States, Nazi Germany would have remained in power, and Eastern Europe would still be hidden behind brick walls and iron curtains.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    If the concept of people being unsatisfied with unfairness had never existed there would be no United States, Nazi Germany would have remained in power, and Eastern Europe would still be hidden behind brick walls and iron curtains.
    And yet the United States continues to exist!

    I'm not sure it's a compelling point you're making...
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    And yet the United States continues to exist!

    I'm not sure it's a compelling point you're making...
    You don't? You don't understand that things change because people look around and say "this isn't right, this isn't fair"?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    What is this "fairness" of which you speak? When did it ever happen that nobody was born with advantages or disadvantages with respect to others? That all were born alike, with equal ability, equal talent, equal beauty, equal wealth, equal intelligence?
    Obviously, the concept of fairness cannot be applied to circumstances which are beyond our control. But social policy does not fall under that category. It is directly under our control. Are you suggesting that we should not strive to implement fair policies?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    And yet the United States continues to exist!

    I'm not sure it's a compelling point you're making...
    Huh? How does the continued existence of the US prove that resenting unfairness is bad? If there was no resentment, the inhabitants would have continued to allow themselves to be exploited to this very day. The negative feelings resulted in positive action to remedy the situation.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If there was no resentment, the inhabitants would have continued to allow themselves to be exploited to this very day. The negative feelings resulted in positive action to remedy the situation.
    Wealth Inequality is just one example of the continued exploitation of the people by the State (which, during Feudalism, would have been the Monarch) which is undeniably unfair. My argument is that your point isn't particularly strong since unfairness occurs all the time and wide-scale revolutions do not. In this regard, the Monarchy has more in common with possibly unfair taxation than it does with the creation of the US - the days of Empire are over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan
    You can't be resentful toward unfairness?

    I suppose a more direct interpretation is that resenting unfairness is problematic. That might be correct. But what does one get from holding no resentment toward unfairness?
    No, but you can be resentful towards the person who you deem to be committing/embodying the "unfairness". That isn't necessarily fair either, since the person may simply have been born into that position (like the royal family). The implication is that it is more fair to be poor and struggling than be rich and, therefore, corrupt. I think that's fuzzy logic and completely disregards the other person (i.e. the royal person) and his/her feelings. Should s/he renounce everything to make it all better?

    Quote Originally Posted by marmelade.sunrise
    You don't? You don't understand that things change because people look around and say "this isn't right, this isn't fair"?
    Sure, but I think your response comes from a defective inference about the meaning of my previous statement(s) (which I have attempted to clarify).

    On another point, I feel I should stress the importance of the OP in this debate, since the thread appears to be at risk of going off course.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  10. #40
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    No, but you can be resentful towards the person who you deem to be committing/embodying the "unfairness".
    Yes, you can. And it can be fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    That isn't necessarily fair either, since the person may simply have been born into that position (like the royal family).
    How does that make it unfair? That they were born rich is out of their control, but what they can do with their wealth and status is in their control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    The implication is that it is more fair to be poor and struggling than be rich and, therefore, corrupt.
    I don't the idea is that it's more fair to be poor. Certainly the people who protest this kind of thing generally don't see virtues in poverty. Rather, fairness is more equality (if not perfect quality), or fairness is in giving back for what you've received/earning what you have, or perhaps being of social function to your full capacity. The royal family doesn't represent any of those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    I think that's fuzzy logic and completely disregards the other person (i.e. the royal person) and his/her feelings. Should s/he renounce everything to make it all better?
    That would be pretty nice!

    I find it interesting that whenever these class issues come up, somehow the focus always becomes the feelings of the few and exorbitantly wealthy. But the masses of the impoverished, disadvantaged, disenfranchised, who have to put up with being at the bottom of a hyperbolic social structure apparently lack feelings worthy of concern.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

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