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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default Have you heard of this book?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Butterfly_Revolution

    I heard of this first when checking out trashy VHS tapes which where being sold very cheaply when DVDs first came into vogue, it was titled the same as the book but apparently was also issued under the title "Summer Camp Nightmare" (seriously there's so many eighties movies dedicated to making people shit themselves about camp that I'm surprised it didnt disappear altogether).

    However, this one sounds smart, or at least the book which inspired it does, why do you figure its sort of been forgotten? Is it just because its considered a poorer version of Lord of The Flies, that theme having been done? Not many people remember WE but they do remember 1984 for instance.

    Or is it that the protagonist, while opposing a revolutionary authority appears to be or is portrayed as communist in his sympathies? I know the socialistic ideas or messages have been down played to disappearence from both 1984 and Animal Farm, both being books about (and this shocks the shit out of libertarians) the betrayal of socialism rather than anti-socialist books per se.

  2. #2
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Seems interesting. I wouldn't mind taking a look at it.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Seems interesting. I wouldn't mind taking a look at it.
    Ditto. Also, based on the two available reviews/synopses, it seems that the protagonist is atheist, intellectually curious and anti-McCarthyite rather than sympathetic to Communism as such.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Ditto. Also, based on the two available reviews/synopses, it seems that the protagonist is atheist, intellectually curious and anti-McCarthyite rather than sympathetic to Communism as such.
    Yeah, well, I'll only know once I've given it a look myself but the authors which the kid reads are all selections from a libertarian fan boys book shelf, besides Karl Marx, I dont know if that's a result of the sixties and seventies left wing synthesis of any and all superficially pro-freedom (I say superficial not because I dont believe they are sincere but because I dont think its a very indepth examination of what can turn out to be conflicting ideas) or a literary trick to highlight McCarthyism's anti-freedom tactics in the freedom loving heartland.

    Anyway, why do you figure its an unheard of book compared to Lord of Flies? Is it comparable to Lord of The Flies? It's perhaps more in an American context and speaks to the perrenial fear of intergenerational conflict, which sixties radicals like Hoffman rightly identified as being a bigger issue than class struggle in the US.

    The Lord of The Flies was supposed to be a reaction to a forgotten book about a public school (which is actually a private elite school in the UK) being ship wrecked and creating a perfect working order based upon their school houses, prefect system, aristo values etc. Which upon being rescued inspired the rescuers to value traditional englishness more or something like that.

    However, while Orwell's books where about betrayal of revolution and Lord of The Flies isnt really about revolution but the abscence of authority what would this book's stance appear to be?

  5. #5
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Or is it that the protagonist, while opposing a revolutionary authority appears to be or is portrayed as communist in his sympathies? I know the socialistic ideas or messages have been down played to disappearence from both 1984 and Animal Farm, both being books about (and this shocks the shit out of libertarians) the betrayal of socialism rather than anti-socialist books per se.
    For real? I am pretty sure my copy of 1984 from 8th grade specifically referred to Orwell as a socialist who came to be horrified by Stalinism. How would that premise be shocking to libertarians? I am becoming convinced that you have never met a flesh-and-blood libertarian in your life.
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  6. #6
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    As long as you're aware of the very clear distinction (though in your mind it might be a subtlety, for all I know) between Stalinism and other forms of Socialism.

  7. #7
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    As long as you're aware of the very clear distinction (though in your mind it might be a subtlety, for all I know) between Stalinism and other forms of Socialism.
    Wow, marmalade shows up to the thread in seconds to patronize me. Awesome. Haven't I shown my grasp of political science and history to be pretty solid by now? And would you even consider Stalinism to be "a form of socialism (small-s!)" rather than the sum total of one despot's take on things? And what would your definition of socialism be? I seem to recall you referring to some Northern European countries as socialist, which I find ludicrous.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Wow, marmalade shows up to the thread in seconds to patronize me. Awesome. Haven't I shown my grasp of political science and history to be pretty solid by now? And would you even consider Stalinism to be "a form of socialism (small-s!)" rather than the sum total of one despot's take on things? And what would your definition of socialism be? I seem to recall you referring to some Northern European countries as socialist, which I find ludicrous.
    Why shouldn't I show up to patronize you when you're known for telling me that I "sound like a 7th grade Social Studies text book"...which is of course, beyond patronizing, and looms more in the territory of rude and even absurd, given the weak grasp of history that many other Americans have.

    Democratic socialism seems to be working quite well in Northern Europe. It's funny to me that you can't fathom "democratic" and "socialism" in the same sentence.

  9. #9
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Why shouldn't I show up to patronize you when you're known for telling me that I "sound like a 7th grade Social Studies text book"...which is of course, beyond patronizing, and looms more in the territory of rude and even absurd, given the weak grasp of history that many other Americans have.
    It's not patronizing. It's overtly critical. You SHOULD know better.


    Democratic socialism seems to be working quite well in Northern Europe. It's funny to me that you can't fathom "democratic" and "socialism" in the same sentence.
    What you're talking about is "social democracy," which is not the same as "democratic socialism." You should learn the difference. In all of those countries, much or most of the means of production are owned/controlled by the private sector. You seem to have a personal definition of socialism that is at odds with what it really means, which is public ownership and management of the means of production. It's funny to me that you can't fathom that a word means something other than what you want it to mean. In the future, you should avoid condescending to someone when you're misinformed.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #10
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    For someone who enjoys talking down to and correcting others, you're certainly easily offended by a dry little comment. I find this is often the case with SFJs.


    What you do mean is that I should embrace your revisionist libertarian view of the world, and I'm going to have to disagree with you, sir. Reading Reason may not actually make you better informed, it may just may make you more deeply entrenched in the trappings of your own ideology.

    However, I will graciously thank you for pointing out that Social Democracy is further Centrist than Democratic Socialism, two concepts which have been used interchangeably until recent years, including within the British Labour Party.

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