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  1. #21
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    I certainly do hope that this tribe isn't interfered with by those who live in technological civilized societies, all that will do is cause these people pain and suffering.

    Originally posted by Victor
    Tribal life tends to be characterised
    I'm going to point out right now that these things occur in post-enlightenment cultures as well

    by infanticide
    Still exists in the form of abortion, and even if that doesn't count I don't think most tribal cultures even commit those acts to begin with.

    child sexual abuse
    Still occurs in modern day society

    slavery
    Existed well beyond the enlightenment, and in some respects still exists essentially in situations where people are controlled by another establishment of some sort. Also consider that slavery doesn't exist in extremely small scale tribes/bands.

    warfare
    Yeah, because the enlightenment totally put warfare to an end.

    sexism
    Doesn't exist in tribes; their egilitarian and rely on equal participation of all members. Modern day society on the other hand has just barely crawled away from sexist thoughts in out culture.

    racism
    Against who? Most tribal societies don't associate with people of different races. Now modern day society. . .

    ageism
    No. Tribal socities usually respect thier old more than more advanced socities have.

    religious superstition
    Actually this is true. But the same can be said for post enlightenmnet socities.

    And those who suffer most from Romanticism are the children, women, the mentally ill, the homosexual, the gifted, the retarded and the creative individual.
    Why? Explain your reasoning here.

    Romanticism is reactionary. And we see this in reactionary movements around the world.

    And Romanticism is reacting against the Enlightenment.
    Yes, because the enlightenmnet has a tendency to ignore the emotional and natural side of life in favor of technology.

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by Oberon
    You try living the rest of your life without dentists or toilet paper or grocery stores and see how you like it.
    Don't forget though that these tribal people are used to life without these luxuries, we however a dependent on them, for us to abandom them completely would come as a shock to us, to tribes they've adapted to function without such things.

  3. #23
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Tribal life tends to be characterised by infanticide, child sexual abuse, slavery, warfare, sexism, racism, ageism, and religious superstition.

    It's where we came from. And since the Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteen centuries, we have slowly been pulling ourselves out of the nightmare of tribalism.

    However Romanticism has been, and remains, a reaction to the Enlightenment.

    And Romanticism romances the past. And in particular it romanticises tribalism.

    And those who suffer most from Romanticism are the children, women, the mentally ill, the homosexual, the gifted, the retarded and the creative individual.

    Romanticism is reactionary. And we see this in reactionary movements around the world.

    And Romanticism is reacting against the Enlightenment.
    Good Lord, Victor, we agree on something!

  4. #24
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    People have no trouble whatsoever corrupting their own children. What on earth leads anyone to believe they would give a shit about some tribe? Sad, but true.
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
    Thoreau

  5. #25
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Tribal life tends to be characterised by infanticide, child sexual abuse, slavery, warfare, sexism, racism, ageism, and religious superstition.

    It's where we came from. And since the Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteen centuries, we have slowly been pulling ourselves out of the nightmare of tribalism.

    However Romanticism has been, and remains, a reaction to the Enlightenment.

    And Romanticism romances the past. And in particular it romanticises tribalism.

    And those who suffer most from Romanticism are the children, women, the mentally ill, the homosexual, the gifted, the retarded and the creative individual.

    Romanticism is reactionary. And we see this in reactionary movements around the world.

    And Romanticism is reacting against the Enlightenment.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Good Lord, Victor, we agree on something!
    If you two think any of these things are somehow unique to a tribal way of life, you're both not only terribly ignorant but also totally blind. "Racism," in particular, is a relatively recent phenomenon (try 16th/17th century), a set of belief and institutions created by European colonists to justify selling people as goods (ever heard of the trans-Atlantic slave trade?). It's not "natural," or simply "the way of human nature," and it hasn't always been here. Even war, or perhaps especially war, is a result of moving away from an egalitarian existence to rank- and class-based societies (as there is always conflict between the "haves" and the "have nots," within and among societies).

    I have no idea why you, Victor, bring up the Enlightenment movement. I'm not seeing how it's relevant to the argument at hand. Europe was organized into states well before the 18th century.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    "Racism," in particular, is a relatively recent phenomenon (try 16th/17th century), a set of belief and institutions created by European colonists to justify selling people as goods (ever heard of the trans-Atlantic slave trade?). It's not "natural," or simply "the way of human nature," and it hasn't always been here.
    I don't mean to be rude, neptunesnet, but this is just not right. The Arabs were enslaving black Africans and everyone else they could get their hands on since time out of mind.

    I cite as evidence the following passage from The Arabian Nights:

    And as he continued in this case lo! a postern of the palace, which was carefully kept private, swung open, and out of it is came twenty slave girls surrounding his brother's wife, who was wondrous fair, a model of beauty and comeliness and symmetry and perfect loveliness, and who paced with the grace of a gazelle which panteth for the cooling stream. Thereupon Shah Zaman drew back from the window, but he kept the bevy in sight, espying them from a place whence he could not be espied. They walked under the very lattice and advanced a little way into the garden till they came to a jetting fountain a-middlemost a great basin of water. Then they stripped off their clothes, and behold, ten of them were women, concubines of the King, and the other ten were white slaves. Then they all paired off, each with each. But the Queen, who was left alone, presently cried out in a loud voice, "Here to me, O my lord Saeed!"

    And then sprang with a drop leap from one of the trees a big slobbering blackamoor with rolling eyes which showed the whites, a truly hideous sight. He walked boldly up to her and threw his arms round her neck while she embraced him as warmly. Then he bussed her and winding his legs round hers, as a button loop clasps a button, he threw her and enjoyed her. On like wise did the other slaves with the girls till all had satisfied their passions, and they ceased not from kissing and clipping, coupling and carousing, till day began to wane, when the Mamelukes rose from the damsels' bosoms and the blackamoor slave dismounted from the Queen's breast. The men resumed their disguises and all except the Negro, who swarmed up the tree, entered the palace and closed the postern door as before.
    - "The Story of King Shahryar and His Brother," from The Thousand Nights and A Night, 1850 translation by Sir Richard Burton

    This collection of stories dates back probably as far as the 9th century, and the racism it contains is no European invention.

  7. #27
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I don't mean to be rude, neptunesnet, but this is just not right. The Arabs were enslaving black Africans and everyone else they could get their hands on since time out of mind.
    Actually, it is right.

    It's true that Arabs owned black African slaves before Europeans, but "racism" (a set of beliefs and institutions based on devaluing groups that are thought to be biologically different and thus inferior) is a European invention*... unless, of course, my professor (whose doctorate, btw, is in Islamic Studies) is wrong.

    Also, the Arab slave trade was a lot more complex and varied, depending on the period, than its European counterpart. Arabs didn't limited their trade to a certain skin color or ethnicity nor did they use slaves as economic engines, unlike the Europeans. That isn't to justify or suggest that their kind of slavery was better, but the Arab slave trade doesn't still affect me today, now, does it?


    *Not to say some cultures at a certain time didn't find other cultures inferior. It's an important distinction to make.

  8. #28
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    Rascism is decidedly NOT a European invention. Jewish people in the Bible thought they were "God's chosen" long before the 16th century, and that does nothing in the way of explaining the Japanese superiority complex, either.

    Rascism is a product of irrationally preferring one's own "in group" ...though at one time, very long ago, it actually may have been quite rational to fear people of other tribes.

  9. #29
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    Thumbs up Sharing the Enlightenment

    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    I have no idea why you, Victor, bring up the Enlightenment...
    Slavery was ubiquitous for 200,000 years, and even the Roman Catholic Church subscribed to the Code Noir, the code of slavery.

    However the European Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries led to the abolition of institutional slavery for the first time in human history in the House of Commons in Britain in 1833.

    So the Enlightenment is the first milestone in human history and it led on to further milestones such as the emancipation of women and bringing child sexual abuse before our criminal courts.

    However large parts of the world today violently reject the Enlightenment and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In particular, the OIC, the Organisation of Islamic Conference, consisting of fifty-seven Islamic States, publicly and openly reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, particularly the human rights of women and children.

    For instance, six thousand little girls have their genitals mutilated every day, day in and day out, almost all in OIC countries.

    So I understand and support the European Enlightenment as a matter of common decency.

    And fortunately for all Australians, our country was founded on the Enlightenment philosophy of Utilitarianism, with the slogan, "The greatest good for the greatest number".

    So all Australians benefit from the Enlightenment every day and we would like to share these benefits with you.

  10. #30
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    ^Those damn Muslims! They're so archaic and backwards! If only they would have accepted our Western ways they wouldn't be in the mess they're in today!



    We're seriously derailing this thread, guys.

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