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  1. #51
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Slavery wasn't even a contributing factor to the Civil War? ORLY? Dude, I was born in West Virginia. Want to know why it's called West Virginia? Because the rocky, plantation-free Western half of Virginia seperated itself from the slavery loving Eastern side. I agree that there were other factors involved in the Civil War, like the expansion of railroads, but to say it wasn't a factor at all is a bunch of revisionist shit.

    I'll give you the myth of flat earth, but if you've come up with as many inventions as Thomas Edison, I'd love to see exactly what you've contributed to our society thus far, Aleksei.
    Nothing, which was kind of my point. Edison was credited with 1,063 inventions, none of which was his.

    Actually I do have a few good ideas (some are recorded in the ENTP and ENFP crazy ideas threads), but I've been too lazy to patent or develop anything.

    As for slavery, no, it wasn't a factor. You see, Northern states were about as racist as their Southern counterparts, and slavery was abolished in the North for two reasons: 1) in an industrial economy it was unprofitable, and 2) to prevent miscegenation. Essentially, Northerners couldn't wait to kick them thur nigger's asses all the way back to Africa where they belonged. Lincoln had zero plans to abolish slavery, and indeed had stated he wouldn't when he ran for President. He ultimately declared Southern slaves free (without any way to enforce it, as he had declared them free in the states that had seceded from the Union), in order to gain the support of escaped slaves and thus manpower. It was a war tactic.

    The actual reason for the war were tariffs. The industrialist Northern economy wanted the federal government to levy obscene tariffs on imports (which it happily obliged as tariffs were pretty much its only source of revenue), and the backwoods plantation-based Southern economy did not enjoy that because for some reason they liked the idea of being dependent on British imports...
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Libertarians were among the most active abolitionists in the 19th Century, but your ideology prohibits you from acknowledging that. Ever heard of Frederick Douglass? How about William Lloyd Garrison? I think there is a Derangement Syndrome support group near you. . .
    I'm sorry, what are you even talking about now? Did I say they weren't? We weren't talking about people who may have (or may not have) been 19th century Libertarians, we were talking about the history of the Democrats and the Republicans.

    Derangement Syndrome? Dude, you're just trolling, and I think you've been trolling for this entire thread seeing as that you didn't bother to argue with Peguy when he disagreed with you.




    But what about Democrats like Grover Cleveland in the 1880s and 1890s, who was strong on civil service reform and civil liberties? What about the Democrats who sided with the Union in the Civil War? What is your definition of "representing civil rights?"

    I never said they didn't. I am saying that they didn't just pull a magic switcheroo 100 years ago, and that "Democrat" and "Republican" really don't say much specifically about one's beliefs without a lot more context. Are you now telling me that I am right about that?
    Well, you actually came in and started an argument based upon the fact that I said being a Democrat or a Republican meant something different than it does now, and you've said absolutely nothing that proves that simple statement wrong. I said nothing about "magic switcheroo." That's absolutely absurd, and I think you know that. You're putting words in my mouth I didn't say. I've been explaining about how much the parties have changed....and dude, they fucking have.

  3. #53
    Sniffles
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    Ahhh "Lost Cause" mythology as my colleagues keep terming it.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Nothing, which was kind of my point. Edison was credited with 1,063 inventions, none of which was his.

    Actually I do have a few good ideas (some are recorded in the ENTP and ENFP crazy ideas threads), but I've been too lazy to patent or develop anything.
    Well we can at least agree that Thomas Edison had more initiative than you, and that certainly means something in the real world.

    Besides, although he didn't actually invent the lightbulb, but merely improved it, that doesn't mean he didn't invent anything. He invented the phonograph.

    As for slavery, no, it wasn't a factor. You see, Northern states were about as racist as their Southern counterparts, and slavery was abolished in the North for two reasons: 1) in an industrial economy it was unprofitable, and 2) to prevent miscegenation. Essentially, Northerners couldn't wait to kick them thur nigger's asses all the way back to Africa where they belonged. Lincoln had zero plans to abolish slavery, and indeed had stated he wouldn't when he ran for President. He ultimately declared Southern slaves free (without any way to enforce it, as he had declared them free in the states that had seceded from the Union), in order to gain the support of escaped slaves and thus manpower. It was a war tactic.

    The actual reason for the war were tariffs. The industrialist Northern economy wanted the federal government to levy obscene tariffs on imports (which it happily obliged as tariffs were pretty much its only source of revenue), and the backwoods plantation-based Southern economy did not enjoy that because for some reason they liked the idea of being dependent on British imports...
    I know how racist the Northerners were, and I know the Civil War was about business ...and slavery was one of those business issues. Lincoln put a stop to the further spread of slavery rather than abolishing it where it had already existed. Slavery was a huge issue during the Civil War, and though I'm certainly not naive enough to believe that everyone's motives were pure, and quite obviously were about business, some people's were.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ahhh "Lost Cause" mythology as my colleagues keep terming it.
    Yeah one of my Libertarian friends back in WV loved to re-enact the Civil War (on the Confederate side) and preach to me about the Lost Cause.

  6. #56
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    Allow me to add something to the Civil War sub-discussion here:


    "The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

    Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
    --Confederate Vice-President Alexander H. Stephens "Cornerstone Speech"; March 21, 1861

  7. #57
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm sorry, what are you even talking about now? Did I say they weren't? We weren't talking about people who may have (or may not have) been 19th century Libertarians, we were talking about the history of the Democrats and the Republicans.
    Riiiiiight, and yet, you equate slavery-enforcing Democrats with modern libertarians? And I am trolling? BTW, I've told you several times small-l libertarian thing, and you refuse to stop. You are doing that on purpose, and it's childish. Also, those two were certainly libertarian in the modern sense of the word. The individualist anarchists of that period were almost all abolitionists, too.


    Derangement Syndrome? Dude, you're just trolling, and I think you've been trolling for this entire thread seeing as that you didn't bother to argue with Peguy when he disagreed with you.
    Pointing out flaws in an argument and historical inaccuracies does not equate to trolling.


    Well, you actually came in and started an argument based upon the fact that I said being a Democrat or a Republican meant something different than it does now, and you've said absolutely nothing that proves that simple statement wrong. I said nothing about "magic switcheroo." That's absolutely absurd, and I think you know that. You're putting words in my mouth I didn't say. I've been explaining about how much the parties have changed....and dude, they fucking have.
    I simply pointed out that "Democrat" and "Republican" just mean members of those parties. The beliefs and attitudes of parties change over time, and they aren't monolithic, anyway. Your language implied that there was some sorts of intrinsic meaning to the terms "Democrat" or "Republican," and they have changed. I disagree.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #58
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    small l stands for small something else i presume...
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    small l stands for small something else i presume...
    Their revisionist history doesn't work without the small l.

  10. #60
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah one of my Libertarian friends back in WV loved to re-enact the Civil War (on the Confederate side) and preach to me about the Lost Cause.
    That's about as unlibertarian as it gets, considering the CSA Constitution prohibited their congress from abolishing slavery in Confederate territories. Lincoln was kind of a douche, though, and the question of secession was a legitimate constitutional crisis that should have gone to the Supreme Court.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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