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  1. #301
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I hope you're not asking us to take your word for it. You'll have to show your work.

    What reasoning led to that conclusion?
    Bills are not allowed to pass by a simple majority without amendments, not even budgets or the allocation of funds for war. There is so much waste in those amendments. It is my conclusion that we effectively get more bad legislation. And that's just the House. The Senate's rules are no better. The intent of the process was prevent bad legislation, but it doesn't really do that. Instead, it promotes waste (pork barrel spending) and backroom deals. This is aristocratic, not democratic. What we need is a streamlined, transparent system. Bills would be able to pass more quickly, but by eliminating rules that promote corruption, I think we'd actually have less bad legislation.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #302
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I cant think of that being a good reason to oppose democracy
    Voters are morons isn't a good enough reason?
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  3. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I cant think of that being a good reason to oppose democracy, its probably good enough to oppose its failure but.
    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep fighting over dinner. It is 51% of the population royally assraping the (generally more productive, given that much of societal wealth creation is top-down, and the top income brackets are smaller) other 49%.

    Democracy additionally provides incentive to loot the public treasury, and pander to special interests to get elected rather than actually govern well. As an individual may not be re-elected, he or she has a higher time preference (in economic terms), leading to a shorter-scale view of their job. This lack of guarantee of a future in turn leads to taking money out now rather than later. This has in turn been seen in quite a few scandals over the years. As for the pandering, since special interest groups provide all of the campaign contributions and advertising, candidates can and must pander to them to be elected. This in turn means democracy itself is untenable, but merely begets oligarchy.

    And yes, slower and gridlocked government does indeed mean less legislation, whether good or bad. The historical record generally shows that government involvement tends to muck things up and make them worse, so overall I'd say that gridlock is a net positive.

  4. #304
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCuckooLander View Post
    The historical record generally shows that government involvement tends to muck things up and make them worse, so overall I'd say that gridlock is a net positive.
    Somalia agrees with you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #305
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Voters are morons isn't a good enough reason?
    What you're describing is a neutered and domesticated version of democracy.

  6. #306
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCuckooLander View Post
    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep fighting over dinner. It is 51% of the population royally assraping the (generally more productive, given that much of societal wealth creation is top-down, and the top income brackets are smaller) other 49%.

    Democracy additionally provides incentive to loot the public treasury, and pander to special interests to get elected rather than actually govern well. As an individual may not be re-elected, he or she has a higher time preference (in economic terms), leading to a shorter-scale view of their job. This lack of guarantee of a future in turn leads to taking money out now rather than later. This has in turn been seen in quite a few scandals over the years. As for the pandering, since special interest groups provide all of the campaign contributions and advertising, candidates can and must pander to them to be elected. This in turn means democracy itself is untenable, but merely begets oligarchy.

    And yes, slower and gridlocked government does indeed mean less legislation, whether good or bad. The historical record generally shows that government involvement tends to muck things up and make them worse, so overall I'd say that gridlock is a net positive.
    Kinda makes you wonder how the 1% is sitting so pretty and military-industrial complex ever became ascendent in the US dont it?

    Reality is that spin and cliches are no substitute for a real assessment, why do you figure that democracy and the whole idea of popular sovereignty has such a bad rap? Why the very people likely to be repeating the anti-democratic rhetoric are the very people least likely to benefit from any alternative?

    Makes me even more convinced that we're just counting the days until we get the capitalist dictatorship, Oops! "Lawful police state", that the neo-cons wanted to smuggle in with emergency powers legislation.

  7. #307
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Makes me even more convinced that we're just counting the days until we get the capitalist dictatorship, Oops! "Lawful police state", that the neo-cons wanted to smuggle in with emergency powers legislation.
    People don't seem to understand that 1) that is indeed what we're moving toward, and 2) it's uncomfortably indistinguishable from classic Fascism.

  8. #308
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    People don't seem to understand that 1) that is indeed what we're moving toward, and 2) it's uncomfortably indistinguishable from classic Fascism.
    I dont know that its indistinguishable from classical fascism, it hasnt the window dressing and doesnt need the perpetual mobilisation of its public but it has the same aims, making the world a safer place for the business class to make money in.

    The thing is though that the only sort of half vital or popular ideological tendency is market libertarianism which is only liable to accelerate this development away beyond what anyone has ever imagined, just take a sample of market libertarian cliches and see what I mean, hostile to democracy, check, favours harsh consequences for non-compliance, check, favours law and order, check, will defend the interests of the moneyed classes and propertied classes first and foremost, check, its possible to go on but I think the point's pretty clear.

  9. #309
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know that its indistinguishable from classical fascism, it hasnt the window dressing and doesnt need the perpetual mobilisation of its public but it has the same aims, making the world a safer place for the business class to make money in.

    The thing is though that the only sort of half vital or popular ideological tendency is market libertarianism which is only liable to accelerate this development away beyond what anyone has ever imagined, just take a sample of market libertarian cliches and see what I mean, hostile to democracy, check, favours harsh consequences for non-compliance, check, favours law and order, check, will defend the interests of the moneyed classes and propertied classes first and foremost, check, its possible to go on but I think the point's pretty clear.
    It's pretty clear that you've got a bone to pick with libertarian theory. I really don't know what that's got to do with me, however.

    Simple enforcement of the business law we've already got would put down 99 percent of the crap that currently goes on... the most recent real estate bubble is a prime example. If lenders had played by the rules, i.e. already-extant law, said bubble would either never have happened or would have been a mere shadow of what we're dealing with now.

  10. #310
    Sniffles
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    Fascism - not this shit again!

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