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  1. #191
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    You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

    I'm done arguing with you on this.

  2. #192
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    I'm never surprised by the type of people who believe in authoritarian fascist tyrannies. They always show up on the forum as total narcissists.

  3. #193
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I don't think intelligence or education should be primary determinants in who gets to vote and who doesn't. The opportunities for abuse would be huge.
    Valid point about the potential for abuse. But then, same goes with Constitutional amendments except that checks and balances have been put into place.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    If God had given you property rights, then you would not need the government to enforce or even allow them -- they'd be self-enforcing. Property rights exist only to the extent that they are protected by force from those willing to violate them -- beyond that it's an empty conc
    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I know right? Property rights are not innate or God given, in fact some societies didn't believe in that concept at all, many Native Americans believed that land could not be owned.

    ...maybe. The same argument could be made for any other right you care to name... free speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion, and so on and so forth. They can all be taken away, and the founders knew this. Jefferson, a particular exponent of natural rights, knew that this was so... yet continued to champion the premise of natural rights. The idea isn't that they can't be taken away... it's that in a perfect world they would never be taken away.

    Hell, you're born with a nose, and yet your nose can be taken away. Does that mean that you had no "natural right" to your nose?

    If you're not careful, you'll find yourself unwittingly formulating a philosophical justification for female circumcision...

  5. #195
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    And yet the constitution has been amended no less than 27 times since its adoption, the last time being in 1992. The process was designed to be burdensome so that the document would only be amended at times when there was a consistent and decisive mandate to do so; which is, to my mind, as it should be. The document was intended in part to protect the rights of the people, and therefore should not be easily amended by whichever faction is in power.
    Yes, it has been amended only 27 times. I would argue that's a woefully low number. Life is completely different than it was in the 18th century. The Constitution doesn't even touch important issues like intellectual property, pollution, and entitlements. And that's just a few I named off the top of my head. Because this process is so difficult, we have courts effectively making law. I don't know about you, but I would rather have elected officials making law over appointees.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Yes, it has been amended only 27 times. I would argue that's a woefully low number. Life is completely different than it was in the last 18th century. The Constitution doesn't even touch important issues like intellectual property, pollution, and entitlements. And that's just a few I named off the top of my head. Because this process is so difficult, we have courts effectively making law.
    I would not blame the courts for the fact that the legislators don't do their jobs.

  7. #197
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I would not blame the courts for the fact that the legislators don't do their jobs.
    It's not that they're "not doing their jobs", it's that the process makes it exceedingly difficult.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #198
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We just need to work on our education system here.
    That helps, but it still doesn't account for the fact that the average person just isn't very bright. Despite the US being one of the most intelligent countries in the world, its median IQ is a measly 98, which is nowhere near smart enough to actually make an informed decision on important issues.
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  9. #199
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    That helps, but it still doesn't account for the fact that the average person just isn't very bright. Despite the US being one of the most intelligent countries in the world, its median IQ is a measly 98, which is nowhere near smart enough to actually make an informed decision on important issues.
    Maybe not to make the actual decision but with the right amount of education and some way to gauge understanding and assimilation, the general populace can at least vote for a candidate who has indepth relevant understanding of the issues at hand.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's not that they're "not doing their jobs", it's that the process makes it exceedingly difficult.
    Which is by design.

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