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  1. #151
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Actually it was François Guizot who first coined the phrase.
    Well, back then, "conservatism" referred to an image of Royal Hierarchy, which is a far cry from the social/fiscal conservatism we have today in the States. (If I'm not mistaken?)

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Well, back then, "conservatism" referred to an image of Royal Hierarchy, which is a far cry from the social/fiscal conservatism we have today in the States. (If I'm not mistaken?)
    True perhaps, but the fact still remains he first coined the phrase - and it was reworked by several others since.

  3. #153
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    The problem with libertarianism is that the term is too broad. It refers to everything from classical liberalism to near anarchy. Some libertarians are much more extreme than others. I consider myself libertarian, but I would never support the elimination of public roads, parks or libraries. A big part of it for me is the concept of federalism. Perhaps a service should be offered by the government. The question is, which one? Why should a service be pushed on the entire country that can easily be handled more efficiently at a state level? Especially when it's something where the federal government's constitutional authority in that area is questionable. What constitutional basis is there for NASA? Or for the Department of Education? Or for the USDA, or the FAA? Why are these bureacracies necessary, and if they are, why have we not given the US government legitimate authority over them?
    Asking why those bureaucracies are needed is a valid question. Asking if they have a constitutional basis is less valid in my opinion. Why? The Constitution is not a divine document. Government needs to evolve along with the society. If the Constitution does not adequately address an issue, what good is it? No better than the Bible.

    I'm not trying to argue that every action the government has taken is justified.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #154
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    The problem with libertarianism is that the term is too broad. It refers to everything from classical liberalism to near anarchy. Some libertarians are much more extreme than others. I consider myself libertarian, but I would never support the elimination of public roads, parks or libraries. A big part of it for me is the concept of federalism. Perhaps a service should be offered by the government. The question is, which one? Why should a service be pushed on the entire country that can easily be handled more efficiently at a state level? Especially when it's something where the federal government's constitutional authority in that area is questionable. What constitutional basis is there for NASA? Or for the Department of Education? Or for the USDA, or the FAA? Why are these bureacracies necessary, and if they are, why have we not given the US government legitimate authority over them?
    Asking why those bureaucracies are needed is a valid question. Asking if they have a constitutional basis is less valid in my opinion. Why? The Constitution is not a divine document. Government needs to evolve along with the society. If the Constitution does not adequately address an issue, what good is it? No better than the Bible.

    I'm not trying to argue that every action the government has taken is justified.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #155
    Oberon
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    Democrats and Republicans? A pox on both their houses!

    I would like things to move in the direction of less government, and more of what's left in state or local control... but no popular party has really stood for that since probably the Van Buren administration.

  6. #156
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Asking why those bureaucracies are needed is a valid question. Asking if they have a constitutional basis is less valid in my opinion. Why? The Constitution is not a divine document.
    No, but it is the law of the land and should be interpreted as such. It isn't a compendium of guiding principles... it's the law. If it needs to be changed to be brought up-to-date, let it be changed... there's a process for that.

  7. #157
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Democrats and Republicans? A pox on both their houses!

    I would like things to move in the direction of less government, and more of what's left in state or local control... but no popular party has really stood for that since probably the Van Buren administration.
    Bah - you're just a Republican in denial. There's so escaping the two-party system.

  8. #158
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Bah - you're just a Republican in denial. There's so escaping the two-party system.
    I will admit that I find some things of merit in the Republican party platform, but I've never seen the Republicans actually do anything to advance the platform. So screw 'em... Their words are drowned out by their deeds.

  9. #159
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Bah - you're just a Republican in denial. There's so escaping the two-party system.
    Ha! It's true, especially when both parties end up with similar actions just packaged differently because both support corporate interests. They are funded by similar sources and therefore have similar goals. The differences are often petty and constructed by the media so that people's attention is on politics at the same level as the thinking required for sporting events. A two party system makes it possible to have that level of marketing control over the thinking of the populace. Both parties are incoherent on a deep level. The Republicans are a conglomeration of Military hawks, corporations and the upper class, along with the Religious Right. They give the RR their moral stance because the other two groups don't care either way, but they need their numbers at the polls to gain their own interests. There are great ways to combine the hawks and corporate interests especially when there is big money to be made. In the end it is ironic to have government control of morals with minimal government control of economy and social services. The Democratic party is just a pretend left that also supports corporations by having the government fund and support them through social programs and bailouts. It's a win-win for corporations, meanwhile the populace is agitated and angry because of petty media talk combined with outrageous claims to instill fear. What was propaganda in the early part of the 20th century has evolved into a more elaborate phenomenon called "Public Relations". We are all affected, and thinking oneself to not be affected is to buy directly into the blindness it seeks to create. Everyone ends up fighting desperately to achieve the same corporate goals that leaves the populace and world as a whole with their actual interests unaddressed. MEH
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #160
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    No, but it is the law of the land and should be interpreted as such. It isn't a compendium of guiding principles... it's the law. If it needs to be changed to be brought up-to-date, let it be changed... there's a process for that.
    It's a process that is deliberately burdensome, as burdensome as changing the Bible.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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