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  1. #21
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    1811
    Good point. An older document would be more reliable.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #22
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No actually they're not. Islamism is as much an aspect of modernity as any secularism, and arose as a response to the failures of secularism in the Islamic world.
    That does not change a thing, of course.

  3. #23
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That does not change a thing, of course.
    Only to those who make ignorant statements.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I am flattered.

  5. #25
    Sniffles
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    Good, glad we got that out of the way.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And?
    I don't think the same judgment would be rendered nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The basic premise of this argument goes all the way back to Plato.
    Appeal to authority.

    *yawn*

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Freedom of religion and blasphemy are not the same thing.
    No, but freedom of speech gives one the right to "blaspheme" all one wants.

  7. #27
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't think the same judgment would be rendered nowadays.
    Maybe but that's quite irrelevant for our purposes here.

    Appeal to authority.

    *yawn*
    It's just a simple statement of fact.
    No, but freedom of speech gives one the right to "blaspheme" all one wants.
    Freedom and license are NOT the same thing.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Islamism is as much an aspect of modernity as any secularism, and arose as a response to the failures of secularism in the Islamic world.
    I understand your position, but I don't think it has any more merit than did Nicodemus'. In fact, unless you can achieve the following, I have to say, I believe it has less...

    I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but, frankly, I think it's a bit ludicrous to claim that secularism ever took hold in the Islamic world to anywhere near the extent that it has in the Western world.

    When did the death of God occur in the Muslim world? Did they come up with the scientific method, empiricism, and the theory of evolution, with the concomitant effects on culture these ideas had over the succeeding centuries?

    If you want to talk about the religious revival in China as an effect of the failure of secularism, I'm all ears. I just don't think the same is nearly as true with regards to the Islamic world.

    The Muslims might indeed be raging against modernity, but it's just as much, if not more, at the fact that, according to secular standards, their societies are so vastly impoverished and low relative to the more secular, Western societies, and less so from any reaction to an advanced, dominant, and fully penetrated secularism that has existed thoroughly and for any significant time within their own culture (a la Western society, or China and other parts of Asia).

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Maybe but that's quite irrelevant for our purposes here.
    Value judgment.

    I wholly disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's just a simple statement of fact.
    That references an authority and is used in an attempt to convey the greater truth of your position.

    Hence, an appeal to authority.

    *yawn*

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Freedom and license are NOT the same thing.
    All government-granted freedoms are essentially license, as they may stripped by that government at any time, given the right conditions.

    ***

    What's more relevant and important is this:

    I'd prefer to live in a society that allows those who wish to create a facebook page and "blaspheme" all they want than one in which a person who does so would be put to death, or convicted of any crime, really.

    If you do not, then I recommend you move to an Islamic country, cuz you're gunna be on the losing side of that vote in most any Western country.

  10. #30
    Sniffles
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