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  1. #71
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Of course it is. Not being allowed to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater is also an infringement on the freedom of speech. Some infringements are accepted because they deal with special or extreme circumstances, and they have a net benefit.

    Groups like the WBC are not being silenced. They're just being told "Don't do it at funerals". There's a HUGE difference between the two.
    I guess I should have asked if this was a meaningful violation of freedom of speech.

    Anyway, I was reading about this, apparently people are arguing that this is a meaningful violation of freedom of speech because those who are saying their message (WBC) are being disallowed from getting their message directly to the intended recipients (the bereaved). So freedom of speech necessitates that the speech gets to the intended party. WBC protested at my school. If, by some fantastical amazing twist of fate, school was canceled that day and nobody was there for them to shout "God Hates Fags" at, would that have been a violation of their freedom of speech? If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, was it allowed its freedom to make a sound?
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  2. #72
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I guess I should have asked if this was a meaningful violation of freedom of speech.

    Anyway, I was reading about this, apparently people are arguing that this is a meaningful violation of freedom of speech because those who are saying their message (WBC) are being disallowed from getting their message directly to the intended recipients (the bereaved). So freedom of speech necessitates that the speech gets to the intended party. WBC protested at my school. If, by some fantastical amazing twist of fate, school was canceled that day and nobody was there for them to shout "God Hates Fags" at, would that have been a violation of their freedom of speech? If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, was it allowed its freedom to make a sound?
    Freedom of speech doesn't mean your target audience should be forced to listen to you. Sure, the bereaved could just leave, but they would miss the funeral.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #73
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I don't know what should be done, but something should. We are raising a generation of idiot narcissists, who believe that if they can think of something disgusting to say, the world has an obligation to hear it and pay them full attention. A consequence of the omnipresence of the internet. Easy access to a target audience seems to have created a perfect niche for folks like this. And yeah, most of them would probably be too cowardly to do this in real life. I do think there should be some consequences--perhaps a fine or some sort of privilege taken away. If there's one thing I'm seeing more and more of in the past few years, it's that people don't police themselves anymore. Without consequences, this trollish behavior will not cease--the troll gets attention and entertains himself in the process. He's getting a payoff. Why would he stop unless made to?
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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't have a problem with libertarians as much as I have a problem with people who view the Constitution as some sort of divine document (or the Founding Fathers as some sort of divine authority). Unfortunately, those two groups overlap so I find myself annoyed with many libertarians even though we might share a lot of beliefs.
    I actually believe in some of their social freedoms, but those overlap with being a liberal or a libertarian socialist. For example, I've thought at times if I had children (which I'm not even sure I will ever have a child, just theoretically speaking) I wouldn't want my children going to public school being in the condition it presently is.

    But on the other hand, I see a breakdown of public programs, like fire departments, for example, and realistically the wide-spread ability of public education to the masses as shooting one's self in the head. Not in the foot, in the head. It really seems like cultural suicide to me, like moving back in time. Of course, I also feel that government and business have to keep one another in check, and I do not comprehend why they do not see that unregulated business is every bit as dangerous as unchecked government in its way.

    I also think that society must have some rules because a lot of people are lost as how to behave otherwise, and I think that just leads to more crime and anti-social behavior.

    Overall, it seems like a nightmare to me, something dreamed up by upper-middle class people warm and snug in their beds not comprehending the reality of chaos it would cause.

    Or maybe they WANT that chaos, and I don't relate to that.

    The first signs of chaos will come almost immediately in the form of wave after wave of "peasant revolts" when social programs are ceased and regulations are removed from businesses. Imagine what happened in Great Britain today times 100, and with too few government employees to stop it.

    If libertarianism survives past that, the natural consequences of poverty and uneducated people will start to take its natural toll in a rise in crime. Streets will be lined with garbage, and pollution will be unchecked.

    If it goes on for too long, the United Nations may be called in.

    Even if it doesn't get that bad, in best case scenario it would go kind of like "The New Zealand Experiment" and be brought to a grinding halt within five to ten years. But that would still be long enough to do real damage to real people.

  5. #75
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    Seems like mental issues. The court may have overstepped on this one. Sending mentally challenged people to jail is hardly the way to go. Psychological help would have been preferred.

  6. #76
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    A consequence of the omnipresence of the internet.
    To pick up on this, as some societies move closer to more time spent in a virtual world as opposed to the physical world, where is the line between physical and emotional distress drawn? If someone hits me in the face, I'd have a bruise that I can use to show the damage, but in the case of things such as trolling and virtual bullying, how do you quantify the damage to the victim? How do you judge whether the online behaviour is tolerable, hurtful or criminal?
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  7. #77
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    To pick up on this, as some societies move closer to more time spent in a virtual world as opposed to the physical world, where is the line between physical and emotional distress drawn? If someone hits me in the face, I'd have a bruise that I can use to show the damage, but in the case of things such as trolling and virtual bullying, how do you quantify the damage to the victim? How do you judge whether the online behaviour is tolerable, hurtful or criminal?
    Unfortunately, right now, one of the main indicators is when it goes so far that the victim sees no other recourse than to end his or her life. It's happened far too frequently recently, especially among teens. This, to me, is one of the main reasons we have to take cyber-bullying seriously. Sure, we can all say, "sticks and stones, free speech," etc., but in many ways, because of the very nature of the internet (where things spread like wildfire in a matter of hours), cyberbullying can have worse and more lasting consequences than physical and real-life bullying. Rather than your whole school knowing, the whole country could know. (As a side note, I felt bad for the college kid who killed himself after his roommates posted the vid of him having gay sex, and then what happens? He becomes the poster child for the cause posthumously--more people know about the whole incident than ever would have known about him or cared.)

    I think a person knows, too, if he's saying deliberately hurtful things about the recently deceased to the mourning family, that he is harrassing and causing emotional distress. He knows he's doing it, but he also knows nothing will happen to him. It's entertainment for him, free of strings. And it will continue as long as there are no consequences.
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