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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That, I think, is the crucial point.

    As for the people defending him on libertarian grounds, I'm beginning to wonder if there's no limit to the sorts of ugly and anti-social behaviour libertarians will defend, if not directly than indirectly on the grounds of rights and state action.
    I've noticed that the uglier, more selfish, and anti-social the behavior the more likely they are to defend it.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    He acted inappropriately but why couldn't they just delete the comment and block untrusted users from posting? No reason to jail a troll...he didn't even threaten anyone. Btw, that cyber-psychologist is full of shit, I'm sure he also thinks marijuana is a "gateway" drug and that thinking a thing makes it so and that there really is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow. Was it Dr. Phil perchance?
    No it wasnt Dr. Phil but if Dr. Phil made the same points as them I'd respect them, I'd have respected your opinion about marijuana not being a gate way drug if you'd qualified it in some way, such as "a "gateway" druge in all instances/in every instance" but since you didnt its just a crass generalisation as bad as what I suspect you're trying to criticise. I dont know what you mean by thinking a thing makes it so or pot of gold at the end of every rainbow, that just sounds like you're trynig to ridicule something you dont understand and that's not smart.

    I think the sucker got what he deserved, behaviour has consequences, freedom has a price.

  3. #53
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    A US Contrast to this case. In case you aren't familiar with Assistant Attorney General of Michigan Andrew Shirvell, he is currently in trouble for harassing an openly gay student at University of Michigan (truth is stranger than fiction)

    http://www.michigandaily.com/content...linary-hearing
    http://www.aolnews.com/surge-desk/ar...-blog/19657092

    Not surprisingly "Freedom of Speech" and "First Amendment" were the reasons that initially his bos snothing was done about Shirvell.

    The reasons why Shirvell is in trouble now are the following:

    1) He used state resources and state time to conduct his activities
    2) His activities went beyond the scope of just the internet into real life
    3) His intent was shown to be beyond the scope of just words and into the realm of harassment
    4) His conduct was unbecoming a state employee

    I think it's the last one that got him in trouble.

    Outside of an employment context where normal citizens don't have such an explicit legal contract with their employer and clients, there is a lot of leeway for bad behavior.

    If Shirvell had just engaged in his activities on his own time and left it at hating on a student online or in print, I don't think he was be in trouble with his employer or his profession.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  4. #54
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    If Shirvell had just engaged in his activities on his own time and left it at hating on a student online or in print, I don't think he was be in trouble with his employer or his profession.
    I can understand and agree why he'd not be in trouble with his employer or profession if he'd done it in his own time but I think he should have gotten into trouble with someone somehow, there's something wrong with being able to harrass people and then insist your freedom entitles you to do so.

    Like a lot of other things I think that's a straight up confusion between freedom and licience.

  5. #55
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    My fantasy is that we put all of these people on an island and let them have their libertarianism, and then come back in a couple of years and see how many of them are dead.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Not in any way that is of particular relevance to this discussion. Are you addressing laws relating to public accommodations on private land or private leases/licenses on public land? Why don't you enlighten us or otherwise make your point/rhetorical question, more clear?
    A vast majority a cemeteries are public. Though they may be privately owned, "use" is what determines whether they are considered public or private venues, not ownership. I don't have any statistics, but if I were to guess, I'd say that most of those with access to private (use) cemeteries are also wealthy. If property rights (you mentioned trespassing previously) are the only rights taken into consideration when determining whether or not it's legal to ruin someone's funeral, the wealthy effectively have more rights than anyone else. Perhaps you consider it to be a privilege to not be harassed at the funeral of a friend or relative, but I consider that to be a right, even if it's not explicitly stated in the Constitution.

    Not uncommon practices for common law jurisdictions to use other common law jurisdiction's law particularly as to novel issues. See:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/us...e%20University

    Although this is an relatively isolated occurrence of these events compared to a lot of the other apparent "wrongs" in our countries today, a lot of time and money has been spent on this for its demagoguery value of by propagandist "news commentators" and politicians appealing to the publics emotions vs. concerns on protecting core American values relating to fundamental rights of speech in a legal system rooted in stare decisis. Similar to the politicians embrace of the American flag burning issue and the push to amend the U.S. Constitution it is a dangerous "nontrovery" See Also: http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/...neral_protests
    I would have no problem with a national law that prohibited the picketing of funerals. There are plenty of other venues where that person could be attacked.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #57
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    OK, wel, I didn't hear the psychologist speaking so I don't know what he said, perhaps if I had I might've agreed, at least to some extent. So nevermind that(unless I can get a recording).

    Btw, do you realize you just made a generalization of a generalization?

    The issue here is one of sensitivity. Obviously what the guy did wasn't a "nice" thing to do, but why jail him? He didn't actually hurt anyone beyond maybe causing grief. I don't agree with what he did but I do think that it's going to far to make or enforce laws that requre people to be sensitive. Fact is, everything he did was preventable from the victims end and instead of pursuing a lawsuit, charges were brought up. I could fully support a lawsuit, but not putting the guy in jail for being an asshole.

    Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #58
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Anyone who advertises his troll status to neighbors, is begging to be caught. Maybe jail time is best for this guy. Nothing like a good round of drop the soap to clean out his internals.

    But I honestly don't understand this need to deliberately and maliciously piss people off. Teasing is one thing where two members understand that it's in fun.

    It makes me wonder how little power and control people have over their own lives and environments that make them delight in being cruel to others. Wouldn't it make more sense to put that energy towards fixing their personal situation instead of dragging others down with them?

    And yet, in the U.K., doesn't this violate Article 10 in their Human Rights Act for freedom of expression, where the only caveats are incitement to racial or religious hatred? Not a lawyer so this might be invalidated by other articles or law.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    but not putting the guy in jail for being an asshole.
    You think we should shoot him?

    Hear, Hear!!

  10. #60
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Actually, despite in the US many cemetaries are public, many states have enacted laws to prevent people from protesting funerals, due to harrassment from the WBC. Is this an infringement on freedom of speech?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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