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  1. #41
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Did you know that deaths and funerals are often announced in newspapers? Publicizing something like this on Facebook is not new to the human experience. The only thing that's different is that it happened on the internet.
    There are distinguishing features.

    Obituaries in newspapers don't usually have space to include responses (i.e. a wall).

    Obituaries are a notice not an invitation to discuss or debate.

    If we make a criminal law that we cant harshly criticize the dead well beyond the long standing social custom (i.e. de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est ) who/what decides which dead persons we can criticize/condemn (i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin Dada, Jeffrey Dahmer, "reformed" Nazi concentration camp guards, Tonya Harding, Michael Jackson, Abe Lincoln etc..)?

    Is the message: the public may comment on the dead but if it is not a nice enough comment they will be incarcerated?

    Sure there are a few nut cases whose social conduct is atrocious when addressing the dead but is the problem really that prevalent that we have to criminalize a new category of unprotected speech and what kind of precedent does it create?

    The perpetrator is a piece of shit thats a given...but there civil remedy...self help/public osterization...but a nasty area for legislation as it becomes too arbitrary.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    There are distinguishing features.

    Obituaries in newspapers don't usually have space to include responses (i.e. a wall).
    This is irrelevant. Someone could still go and taunt those in mourning.

    Obituaries are a notice not an invitation to discuss or debate.
    Is an internet memorial any different?

    If we make a criminal law that we cant harshly criticize the dead well beyond the long standing social custom (i.e. de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est ) who/what decides which dead persons we can criticize/condemn (i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin Dada, Jeffrey Dahmer, "reformed" Nazi concentration camp guards, Tonya Harding, Michael Jackson, Abe Lincoln etc..)?
    Right, this is exactly the argument I was trying to make. Because crashing funerals (or doing the equivalent online) is bad form, we should make it illegal to ever say a negative word about anyone ever. Good use of logic there.

    Is the message: the public may comment on the dead but if it is not a nice enough comment they will be incarcerated?
    The venue matters.

    Sure there are a few nut cases whose social conduct is atrocious when addressing the dead but is the problem really that prevalent that we have to criminalize a new category of unprotected speech and what kind of precedent does it create?
    What are you talking about? This happened in the UK, not the US.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #43
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is irrelevant. Someone could still go and taunt those in mourning.


    Is an internet memorial any different?.
    The Internet Facebook memorial as far as I can tell is open to the public. If it is a private memorial located on private real estate than those not invited would be trespassing.

    [/QUOTE] Right, this is exactly the argument I was trying to make. Because crashing funerals is bad form, we should make it illegal to ever say a negative word about anyone ever. Good use of logic there.[/QUOTE]

    Are you being facetious in this comment? I am uncertain what you are trying to say. Are you saying we should be never criticize/condemn any dead person...including Hitler and other bad people? Doesn't that limit the people's abilities to learn from the mistakes of the past within the debate of ideas? If the suggestion is genuine it does seem to suggest over-inclusive legislation and arbitrary enforcement.


    [/QUOTE] The venue matters..[/QUOTE]

    As to the substance of what is said?

    If the venue is a private venue on private real estate then of course as to trespassers. On private internet venue am not so sure as to criminal trespass and if so would the consent ex post facto be removed as soon as something deemed negative was said?

    [/QUOTE] What are you talking about? This happened in the UK, not the US.[/QUOTE]

    Although UK doesn't have as liberal freedom of speech protections they still have some and what happens over there has a persuasive precedent over other Western legal jurisdictions. This issues are still important regardless.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  4. #44
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    It said he was only caught because he
    sent residents on his street photos of himself saying he was an internet "troll"


    whaaa?
    natural selection at work my friend
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #45
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    The Internet Facebook memorial as far as I can tell is open to the public. If it is a private memorial located on private real estate than those not invited would be trespassing.
    Do you even know what makes a cemetery public or private, under the law?

    Are you being facetious in this comment? I am uncertain what you are trying to say. Are you saying we should be never criticize/condemn any dead person...including Hitler and other bad people? Doesn't that limit the people's abilities to learn from the mistakes of the past within the debate of ideas? If the suggestion is genuine it does seem to suggest over-inclusive legislation and arbitrary enforcement.
    I can't do anything but laugh at this comment. You throw names like Hitler into this discussion, I make a snarky response, and you actually ask whether or not I'm being facetious. You're either being disingenuous or you're incredibly...

    As to the substance of what is said?
    What constitutes "disturbing the peace"?

    If the venue is a private venue on private real estate then of course as to trespassers. On private internet venue am not so sure as to criminal trespass and if so would the consent ex post facto be removed as soon as something deemed negative was said?
    If you did a little research on public vs private cemeteries, you would have (or at least should have) realized that your objection doesn't even apply to the vast majority of possible cases.

    Although UK doesn't have as liberal freedom of speech protections they still have some and what happens over there has a persuasive precedent over other Western legal jurisdictions. This issues are still important regardless.
    Do you have evidence that judges in the US still use British legal precedence in their rulings?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #46
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Do you even know what makes a cemetery public or private, under the law
    Not in any way that is of particular relevance to this discussion. Are you addressing laws relating to public accommodations on private land or private leases/licenses on public land? Why don't you enlighten us or otherwise make your point/rhetorical question, more clear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Do you have evidence that judges in the US still use British legal precedence in their rulings?
    Not uncommon practices for common law jurisdictions to use other common law jurisdiction's law particularly as to novel issues. See:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/us...e%20University

    Although this is an relatively isolated occurrence of these events compared to a lot of the other apparent "wrongs" in our countries today, a lot of time and money has been spent on this for its demagoguery value of by propagandist "news commentators" and politicians appealing to the publics emotions vs. concerns on protecting core American values relating to fundamental rights of speech in a legal system rooted in stare decisis. Similar to the politicians embrace of the American flag burning issue and the push to amend the U.S. Constitution it is a dangerous "nontrovery" See Also: http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/...neral_protests
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  7. #47
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    He acted inappropriately but why couldn't they just delete the comment and block untrusted users from posting? No reason to jail a troll...he didn't even threaten anyone. Btw, that cyber-psychologist is full of shit, I'm sure he also thinks marijuana is a "gateway" drug and that thinking a thing makes it so and that there really is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow. Was it Dr. Phil perchance?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    His behaviour was thoroughly reprehensible, of course. Equally as obvious as this fact is its irrelevance.
    Reprehensible but irrelevent?

    OK, I know not to look for sense in your posts.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    natural selection at work my friend
    Eck winz the thread.

    (though Lateralus also made some excellent points)

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I think this man was jailed partly because people saw the scope of what he was doing as indicative of a deeper/more sinister problem and that he would keep moving onto bigger and more alarming projects.
    That, I think, is the crucial point.

    As for the people defending him on libertarian grounds, I'm beginning to wonder if there's no limit to the sorts of ugly and anti-social behaviour libertarians will defend, if not directly than indirectly on the grounds of rights and state action.

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