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  1. #11
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    It seems like the polls I have seen it showed that Obamacare ( i.e.nationalized health care) and a desire to have it repealed a big issue if not the biggest issue approx 50% (even more than jobs or the economy in general). Is the Obamacare really at the core of this apparent dissatisfaction or is it merely a divisive issue a person can hang their hat on as clearly distinguishing Democrat leadership from a new Republican one or is it a metaphor for some higher abstract?
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  2. #12
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    It seems like the polls I have seen it showed that Obamacare ( i.e.nationalized health care) and a desire to have it repealed a big issue if not the biggest issue approx 50% (even more than jobs or the economy in general). Is the Obamacare really at the core of this apparent dissatisfaction or is it merely a divisive issue a person can hang their hat on as clearly distinguishing Democrat leadership from a new Republican one or is it a metaphor for some higher abstract?
    Actually, there's other polls where the majority of Americans say they wish health reform went even further. Polling on health care reform is a mixed bag, when you poll about specific parts of the bill, like no more pre-existing conditions, it polls well.

    When Social Security and Medicare were passed, for a few years after, Republicans talked about repeal all the time, but today you have Republicans campaigning against cuts to Social Security and Medicare. Because if you try to scrap social security, it's political suicide. That's why when all the Republicans get asked what exactly they're going to cut in the budget, they draw blanks.

  3. #13
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    When Social Security and Medicare were passed, for a few years after, Republicans talked about repeal all the time, but today you have Republicans campaigning against cuts to Social Security and Medicare. Because if you try to scrap social security, it's political suicide. That's why when all the Republicans get asked what exactly they're going to cut in the budget, they draw blanks.
    Cuts in Social Security and Medicare are inevitable, however. At some point during our lifetimes, or our childrens' lifetimes, or their childrens' lifetimes, benefits will have to be reduced either because some elected lunatic found the political will to do it (highly unlikely) or because the government simply no longer has either the money or the credit to borrow the money to continue to feed the entitlement beast (a certainty, absent major restructuring).

  4. #14
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Cuts in Social Security and Medicare are inevitable, however. At some point during our lifetimes, or our children's' lifetimes, or their childrens' lifetimes, benefits will have to be reduced either because some elected lunatic found the political will to do it (highly unlikely) or because the government simply no longer has either the money or the credit to borrow the money to continue to feed the entitlement beast (a certainty, absent major restructuring of the country).
    If politicians throughout the lifetime of social security didn't keep on mismanaging (i.e. stealing) from it there would be plenty. Most likely Dems and Repubs will come up with a compromise to "grandfather in' (nonconforming variances/exceptions) current benefits for todays old folks (to keep their vote) and limit benefits for some of the boomers and all of the gen X, Y, and Zs.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  5. #15
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    I am not speaking ideologically rather pragmatically or more specificially, "What Did the Democrats do Strategically Wrong"
    I don't think you can really separate the two, but...

    1.) Making highly controversial and expensive health-care legislation (i.e. new entitlements) and environmental legislation (i.e. job-killer) a priority in the middle of a major recession. Compound the error by falsely predicting that the health-care legislation would lower costs for the average American.

    2.) Enacting an expensive "stimulus" package while predicting a significant decrease in the unemployment rate due to "shovel-ready" jobs, and be proven ass-wrong.

    3.) Do all of this in an overtly partisan and pork-barrel manner (thereby arousing the anger of both independents and the opposition), all the while raising expectations among supporters to unattainable heights.

    4.) Misreading the 2008 mandate as a seismic ideological shift among the American electorate.

  6. #16
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    If politicians throughout the lifetime of social security didn't keep on mismanaging (i.e. stealing) from it there would be plenty. Most likely Dems and Repubs will come up with a compromise to "grandfather in' (nonconforming variances/exceptions) current benefits for todays old folks (to keep their vote) and limit benefits for some of the boomers and all of the gen X, Y, and Zs.
    Most of the Gen-Xers I know aren't counting on ever receiving a single dollar from Social Security anyhow, so that plan could very well work.

  7. #17
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    They, or more specifically Obama, promised 'change' and in the last two years not much has changed. And if it has it's mostly gotten worse.

  8. #18
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    To be fair, I think the "Change" think isn't (at least fully) for lack of effort: Part of it is lack of American patience. People want an overnight solution for something that takes time. Recessions always take time to come out of, especially large recessions, and that's just how it is. Being in rehab sucks, but checking out after a week is generally a worse idea than staying.

    Not campaigning on their accomplishments (the stimulus, for example, contained the largest tax cut in US history, a full 40% of the 787 billion).

    And the fact that, frankly, a lot of the Republican strategy was very effective politically, if somewhat irresponsible in terms of real-world results. When the Dems held everything, it was easy for them to oppose absolutely everything, even things they'd agreed with or proposed as a party a few years earlier (certain things incorporated into healthcare, cap and trade) things that economists (even many conservative ones) agreed almost universally then and now needed to be done (stimulus, ending the Bush tax cuts), and things that Americans in general oppose (Don't Ask, Don't Tell, that bill to give healthcare to volunteers who had health problems as a result of 9/11). But, because the Repubs had control of neither house nor the executive, just saying 'no' all the time and claiming the Dems were marginalizing and ignoring them was an effective strategy. They didn't even really have to come up with alternatives to these problems, just complain publicly. Yell about Dems raising taxes and cutting certain programs (like Medicare, but that was actually a cut to projected budget increases intended to be offset by preventative spending) but don't create a clear alternative.

    Similarly, when ANY party has that kind of power, no matter how much good they do, they're going to lose at least some seats. In an environment like this, in which there is a lot of hardship still going on in the nation, Repubs role in causing problems is mostly forgotten for the fresher wound of Dems, who had total control these past two years, seeming to not stop it.

    Here's the good:

    Republicans actually have some accountability again. A concerted party effort to make the Democrats look bad just by doing what you can to obstruct or demonize legislation is not going to work, because the House will also look bad. Bipartisanship and reasonable demands and concessions, at least to some degree, is going to be fully necessary in the next two years. If an economic relief proposal pops up and the Republicans block it in the House, and soon things get worse, suddenly the Republicans look more culpable than they ever could the last two years.

    Plus, the vim and vigor of certain very vocal conservative groups should recede at least somewhat.

    Similarly, people who are more liberal won't get as upset when legislation doesn't go as far as they feel it should.

    Basically, the national debate will probably work better than it did the past two years, even if the actual legislation has a difficult time, because one side can't just refuse to participate and get away with it anymore. Democrats approval will go up. Republicans might get somewhat better approval when they start presenting themselves a bit more moderately, since this election seemed more like punishing Democrats than people actually liking Republicans

    And the Republicans shouldn't get too high and mighty: I can't see any way the next election would go this well for them (that's not to say they'll lose, but something like this? not unless Obama or maybe Harry Reid personally really messes up).
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  9. #19
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    4.) Misreading the 2008 mandate as a seismic ideological shift among the American electorate.
    Pretty much this. They committed the same basic mistake the Republicans did when they controlled the White House and Congress.

  10. #20
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post

    Here's the good:

    Republicans actually have some accountability again.
    Consider how well that reasoning worked for the Republicans after 2006...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Pretty much this. They committed the same basic mistake the Republicans did when they controlled the White House and Congress.
    Agreed, the Republicans hadn't learned from their 1994 experience to tell the difference between an opportunity and a mandate. They are by and large making making the right rhetorical gestures this time, but we'll see if they've learned the lessons of the past (not to mention the polls) this time around...

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