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  1. #11

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    Yeah people dont realise Libertarianism isnt cool anymore.

    Anyway, no surer way to fuck capitalism up for good than to put the people in office who totally believe in it, its only just made it into this century by virtue of the fact that the national helmsmen haven believed in it and have only applied it in so far as its been plausible and feasible in the real world.

    It'll have the same fate as socialism, anti-terrorism and every other one time cool concept.

  2. #12
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah people dont realise Libertarianism isnt cool anymore.
    Since when, exactly? Seems to me that libertarians are smelling like roses after the Bush-Obama twin disasters.


    Anyway, no surer way to fuck capitalism up for good than to put the people in office who totally believe in it, its only just made it into this century by virtue of the fact that the national helmsmen haven believed in it and have only applied it in so far as its been plausible and feasible in the real world.

    It'll have the same fate as socialism, anti-terrorism and every other one time cool concept.
    Were those EVER cool?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah people dont realise Libertarianism isnt cool anymore.

    Anyway, no surer way to fuck capitalism up for good than to put the people in office who totally believe in it, its only just made it into this century by virtue of the fact that the national helmsmen haven believed in it and have only applied it in so far as its been plausible and feasible in the real world.

    It'll have the same fate as socialism, anti-terrorism and every other one time cool concept.
    I agree with you on this totally, Lark. It's too extremist, and would only work in the real world if everyone was intelligent, educated, and had morals, but that's not the case. Libertarianism is a nice dream, like Communism once was.

    Real-world application of political theory is of utmost importance, as is actually learning from history rather than romanticizing it when it comes to government.

  4. #14
    Oberon
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    Our problem with capitalism these past few years hasn't been insufficient regulation... it's been failure to enforce laws that are already on the books.

    When mortgage brokers knowingly sign up anyone with a pulse for a mortgage that they know won't be paid, simply because they know they can sell that mortgage downstream at a big profit, that's illegal.

    When investment banks bundle these crap mortgages into bond-like commodities with the same understanding that the mortgages are, in fact, crap, that's illegal.

    When those same investment banks pay off bond rating agencies to make sure that toxic assets are issued with a "Triple-A" rating, that's illegal.

    When people like Fed Chairmen Ben Bernanke and Alan Greenspan, and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner watch all this happening and do nothing about it, that's illegal.

    When the Fed decides it's going to jump-start the economy by injecting multiple trillions of fiat-money Federal Reserve Notes into the banking system, it's not strictly illegal (but it ought to be, my friends, it ought to be).

    It's long past time to whip out some handcuffs, guys.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I agree with you on this totally, Lark. It's too extremist, and would only work in the real world if everyone was intelligent, educated, and had morals, but that's not the case.
    [citation needed]


    Libertarianism is a nice dream, like Communism once was.
    Communism was always a nightmare. The ends and the means were both atrocious.


    Real-world application of political theory is of utmost importance, as is actually learning from history rather than romanticizing it when it comes to government.
    Libertarians romanticize the government? Or romanticize history? Neither of those is true.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #16
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    Libertarians definitely romanticize history, even more so than political conservatives. At least conservatives are reasonably pragmatic.

    I mean Libertarians call their protest against taxes the Tea Party, and apparently only see what was good about laissez-faire capitalism for a small percentage of people in previous centuries, blatantly ignoring the fact all of the suffering and poverty it caused, as well as the simple fact that it caused the economy to be A LOT LESS STABLE. Recessions and bank failures as we're having now were much more common in the 19th century and happened as frequently as every decade or less.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Libertarians definitely romanticize history, even more so than political conservatives. At least conservatives are reasonably pragmatic.
    Libertarians are the most future-oriented political group in existence, so. . . no? They are always at the forefront of looking for new technologies and ways of living. They may say that some things were better in the past (smaller, less intrusive federal government), but that isn't romanticizing anything. I'd really like to hear your reasoning on this, because it sounds to me like you REALLY do not understand the perspective. Like, at all.

    I mean Libertarians call their protest against taxes the Tea Party, and apparently only see what was good about laissez-faire capitalism for a small percentage of people in previous centuries, blatantly ignoring the fact all of the suffering and poverty it caused, as well as the simple fact that it caused the economy to be A LOT LESS STABLE. Recessions and bank failures as we're having now were much more common in the 19th century and happened as frequently as every decade or less.
    And that lasted for much shorter periods of time, and the overall growth trend was gigantic. And capitalism didn't cause poverty. EVERYONE was poorer before capitalism than after. People moved to urban areas because they desperately wanted steady work that wasn't year-round, backbreaking farm labor. Periodic swings of growth and contraction are not big deals when the overall trend is way, way up. Your historical narrative isn't reflected in the data. The whole point of liking free market capitalism is precisely that it's the best way to increase absolute wealth across the board.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #18
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    http://www.independentpoliticalrepor...ty-idea-first/

    http://ideas.repec.org/a/aea/aecrev/...i4p710-31.html

    Capitalism is fine, and it's better than straight up Communism, but unregulated Capitalism is basically a polite form of rape and plunder. There's nothing future-forward about practicing something that begin occuring in the 15th century, except that it wasn't called "Capitalism" at that time.

    While laissez-faire Capitalism was an improvement on older ways of living - say, Feudalism - that doesn't mean that it's superior to the more regulated system we have at this time.

    The quality of life for the overall population in the United States and England is superior to 100 years ago, thanks to both technology and regulations on Capitalism.

    Refusing to face the fact that working people frequently died at work in factories, lived in slums and died so often that they had "death chutes" to extricate them from the tenant buildings, and that children were often employed ...all of these people, children and adults - at less than fair or livable wages is like denying that the Holocaust happened. It's denying a part of history that you don't find palatable.

    This kind of grim, disturbing lack of ethics in business went on in coal mines as well as factories, and also affected farmers.

    People began to form themselves into unions, not because government made them, but because they were tired of being exploited and essentially murdered by early capitalists.

    If I can grow out of my silly adolescent idealization of communism, and rationally concede that there are very good things about capitalism, I honestly don't see why it's so difficult for libertarians to face that there are very primitive, disgusting, horrendous things about unregulated capitalism that went on in the past in the U.S. and England, and continue to go on in third world countries in the name of almighty capitalism.

    I think business and government have to keep an eye on one another, that either one can get out of control and become a sick, power-hungry institution.

    And please, don't tell me that people are better than they were 150 years ago. We haven't evolved that quickly that human nature is not continue to commit the same mistakes when given so much "freedom."

  9. #19
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    I used to vote libertarian at times, but I was coming more from a left type of libertarianism. For example, with some drug laws or euthanasia.. I don't even do drugs myself, and I think euthanasia is pretty f'in grim, but I still think the laws and/or the surrounding issues are stupid. Not to mention a few others. Basically, I hate "big government" when it comes to social conservatism. I'm thankful it's not as bad it used to be apparently (for example, "blue laws", where businesses couldn't even be opened on Sundays in some territories at one point), but all of the conservative moralizing and nannying annoys me whenever it turns up. Libertarianism is generally associated with people who are solely concerned with free markets, but in my view, I feel I'm libertarian precisely because of conservatives. Not because I am one. They have a history of making "big government" umbrella measures themselves, and in my view, it's usually more annoying than "market constraints".

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    (but it ought to be, my friends, it ought to be).
    Awh Man! You where doing so well and all.

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