User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 102

  1. #51
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    My immediate reaction to the OP is - who cares about this "class".
    Mostly the lower and higher classes, would be the answer. Lower classes care more about class because they don't have the social luxury of avoiding it like the more affluent middle class, and the upper class because it determines peerage.



    These points about belonging, etiquette, keeping up with the Joneses, and being refined - they bother me - that this is a goal we have in our society. Why do we have to be lemmings? Why do we have to be so shallow? We're inundated with advertising and messaging in media which has shaped us as a society. I wonder if this will change in the upcoming years. We have DVRs and skip commercials. We ignore advertising on the Internet. How will media and corporations help to shape the values of society moving forward? I think this does tie to class. Class structures have been around for a very long time - far before the advent of modern media. The manipulation of society to earn as much as possible and spend money you don't have seems like a more recent thing. It is interesting then that class now is becoming more closely aligned with how one spends their money.
    I'm not sure these things are "shallow" I believe they are "Fe."

    Social etiquette exists as a way to manage relationships amongst groups of people who share a culture in common. When socializing is your primary goal (and it often is, or was especially in the past when the upper classes never set a finger to work) these things would carry utmost importance. Not to mention that the art of living with good taste can be enjoyable.

    I used to love going to le circle francais dinner parties in college because we practiced proper etiquette. I am attracted to that sort of "culture." I can kind of see why people would pay attention to those things on a daily basis if they had the luxuries of time and money to do so.



    Not that I'm defending classism, because I'm certainly not. I'm more defending the idea of "class" as being seperate from socio-economic class.

    Oh, and I think that the reason that class is associated with how one spends one's money has to do with the fact that we live in a capitalist country and we have more choices than people did in the past. In a way it's good because it makes our class system more flexible and it's a country where you can rise above the class you were born in. The things Edgar was talking about tends to apply more to other countries.

  2. #52
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 so/sx
    Socionics
    SLE Ti
    Posts
    2,182

    Default

    Social class doesn't determine one's personality disorders...I've met people on every spectrum of social class where I couldn't talk to them, not because how much money they earned, but because we were on entirely different poles of sanity.

  3. #53
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is interesting. I agree with the high end and low end but am not sure it fully captures things for the middle class though.
    According to Fussell, and I agree with him on that, middle class people are actually the most insecure about their status. They yearn to progress into upper class, and they also fear falling into lower class. That's why they tend to do things that "show status", such as joining quasi-political groups such as environmental this, or animal protection that, and most hilarious of all - putting stickers of their alma mater on their cars to show that they went to a good university.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    As far as I can see there really is no difference, especially in the United States.

    I do know what you mean about the lower classes equating money with being high class, thus the term (and please, nobody take this to heart) "nigger rich" implying a lower class, uneducated person who comes into wealth. And yes, the middle class equate class with education, and with good reason in the United States, because people with more degrees not only tend to be more educated and refined, but also earn more money.
    Those who are born into old money don't have to work a day in their life, so the concept of "earning potential" is meaningless to them.

    But yes, you are right that historically, people with degrees tended to earn more money, and, unsurprisingly universities were restricted to the rich, or at least, "well to do" families. However, this is becoming much less so, because the concept of "education", which middle class equates with status, has been oversold to that same desperate middle class (as well as some lower class) as a commodity, to the point that a generic B.A. degree is virtually worthless in this day and age. However, getting into a prestigious school like Yale is still nigh impossible for a non-blueblood, and, if by some miracle a run of the mill middle class schlub manages to eek his way into a prestigious university like Yale because he is a world class spelling bee champion or whatever, he will still most likely be shunned by the good old boy networks such as "Skull and Bones" (whatever the name of the local rich-kid fraternity might be).

    And for the record, Paris Hilton comes from "old money" and she has neither the distinction of education nor culture to recommend her, she actually behaves like a lower-class person who came into money rather even an educated middle class person and certainly not even like old-school "cultured" which is apparently why she was rejected by the family of that Greek heir she was dating who was also named Paris.
    Paris Hilton is the exception that makes the rule. US is a democratic country and the indignation of the lower classes has some power - at least enough to cause a noticeable inconvenience to an upper class. So upper class life is very incognito. For example - do you know wtf are Astors and Tisches are up to? I would assume that most people here don't even recognize these names.

    I guarantee you that Paris Hilton is a cause of great embarrassment to her family. Also, I am quite convinced that if she ever gets married, it would be to some new money celebrity, because all upper class families shun her - you've mentioned an example of that yourself.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  4. #54
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    According to Fussell, and I agree with him on that, middle class people are actually the most insecure about their status. They yearn to progress into upper class, and they also fear about falling into lower class. That's why they tend to do things that "show status", such as joining quasi-political groups such as environmental this, or animal protection that, and most hilarious of all - putting stickers of their alma mater on their cars to show that they went to a good university.
    I don't think that people belong to quasi-political groups just to show status. That might be one motive, but I doubt very seriously that's why most people belong to political or social groups. In fact this shows a very Te approach and completely ignores people who have a stronger Fi or Fe motive. *giggles at the cute little robot*



    Those who were born into old money don't have to work a day in their life, so the concept of "earning potential" is meaningless to them.

    But yes, you are right that historically, people with degrees tended to earn more money, because universities were restricted to the rich, or at least, "well to do" families. However, this is becoming much less so, because the concept of "education", which middle class equates with status, has been oversold to that same desperate middle class (as well as some lower class) as a commodity, to the point that a generic B.A. degree is virtually worthless in this day and age. However, getting into a prestigious school like Yale is still nigh impossible for a non-blueblood, and, if by some miracle a run of the mill middle class schlub manages to eek his way into a prestigious university like Yale because he is a world class spelling bee champion or whatever, he will still most likely be shunned by the good old boy networks such as "Skull and Bones" (whatever the name of the local rich-kid fraternity might be).
    Right, but education still typically allows people to earn more income, and it can be what propels a lower class person into the middle class, even if it's harder to claw one's way into the upper class from the middle.


    Paris Hilton is the exception that makes the rule. US is a democratic country and the indignation of the lower classes has some power - at least enough to cause a noticeable inconvenience to an upper class. So upper class life is very incognito. For example - do you know wtf are Astors and Tisches are up to? I would assume that most people here don't even recognize these names.

    I guarantee you that Paris Hilton is a cause of great embarrassment to her family. Also, I am quite convinced that if she ever gets married, it would be to some new money celebrity because all upper class families shun her - you've mentioned an example of that yourself.
    Paris Hilton would be a great cause of embarrassment to my family...and trust me, that's not saying very much at all. I think she was dropped on her head.

  5. #55
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Right, but education still typically allows people to earn more income, and it can be what propels a lower class person into the middle class, even if it's harder to claw one's way into the upper class from the middle.
    As I mentioned before, lower class people think higher income in and of itself, propels them into a higher class.

    This isn't the case.

    You just unwittingly gave away your class background.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  6. #56
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    As I mentioned before, lower class people think higher income in and of itself, propels them into a higher class.
    That's not what I said at all. Education can propel people from the lower to middle class because of income, or because of education. Typically people blend in better to the middle class if they are well educated and have good manners. I've said repeatedly in this thread that availability of education is what allows more people to have things like "class" and "taste" seperate from socio-economic class.

    This isn't the case.
    I agree. I agree that being middle class is more associated with a certain level of education and refinement, as compared to what is viewed as the more "base" or ignorant working class.

    You just unwittingly gave away your class background.
    I did no such thing. I said I was working class several pages ago, and have many times on this forum. It's not a mystery.

  7. #57
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I did no such thing. I said I was working class several pages ago, and have many times on this forum. It's not a mystery.
    I confess, I didn't read the whole thread.
    I'd be damned if I have to go through 5 pages of jibber jabber before I make a comment.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #58
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I confess, I didn't read the whole thread.
    Oh you never do, and then you cleverly patch the holes with humor, usually.

  9. #59
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Oh you never do, and then you cleverly patch the holes with humor, usually.
    Yeah, well, easier than reading through all that shit.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  10. #60
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,889

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm not sure these things are "shallow" I believe they are "Fe."

    Social etiquette exists as a way to manage relationships amongst groups of people who share a culture in common. When socializing is your primary goal (and it often is, or was especially in the past when the upper classes never set a finger to work) these things would carry utmost importance. Not to mention that the art of living with good taste can be enjoyable.
    The thought did cross my mind that maintaining the values, expectations and norms of a group or class does relate to the use of Fe. However, what I'm saying is that the values being affirmed are shallow. The values are what's important and it seems to me that the values associated with class do not reflect the ideals of what we could aspire to be as a society.

    A trivial example of "class" is in the college Greek system which I participated in during my college days. There are different tiers or classes within that society that relate to what house you are in. I knew the values in that society were superficial but there were practical reasons to participate (meeting women) so I played the game to the point of being elected to president of my house. We all do this in our daily lives - we play the game to fit in. I'm not sure it's healthy in the long run for one to participate in something where the values of the group are off kilter. I wonder if this is part of the reason why people brought up in the upper classes have so many problems. They are indulged. It can be hard to develop motivation and drive. They rely on the house staff or parents to do things for them and don't learn how to manage money or work with other people. They are surrounded by other rich kids that are impacted in the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Oh, and I think that the reason that class is associated with how one spends one's money has to do with the fact that we live in a capitalist country and we have more choices than people did in the past. In a way it's good because it makes our class system more flexible and it's a country where you can rise above the class you were born in.
    I think this is right.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

Similar Threads

  1. [E4] Does Beauty fill you up with sadness?
    By BeyondTheGrey in forum Enneatypes
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 11-06-2017, 07:53 PM
  2. Does it or some of it describe you?
    By BrainySchmuck in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-22-2016, 10:15 AM
  3. What underpins the status quo or social order you live in?
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-08-2016, 10:19 AM
  4. What does your 'social network' tell you?
    By Asterion in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-12-2010, 08:04 PM
  5. Replies: 118
    Last Post: 09-16-2008, 09:50 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO