User Tag List

First 678910 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 140

  1. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    1,650

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    They are born into money because someone who had earned the money previously decided to dispense with it by leaving it to them.
    Define "earned". There are many ways to make lots of money without engaging in activities which has value to future generations. Theft. Extortion. Corporate cronyism. Lawsuits. Fraud. Luck. Sports. Entertainment.

    IT'S THEIR MONEY.
    It's only theirs if society is willing to enforce that claim. There is nothing sacred about prevailing property laws. They can easily be changed if society deem such actions to be desirable. The issue is whether we ought to do so.

    It isn't about "deserve" and there is no injustice at play whatsoever, unless you think the universe is inherently unjust, since some people naturally have more economically valuable skill sets than others. "
    Are you suggesting that we should not let our sense of fairness interfere with the prevailing order of the universe? If so, why not?

  2. #72
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Define "earned". There are many ways to make lots of money without engaging in activities which has value to future generations. Theft. Extortion. Corporate cronyism. Lawsuits. Fraud. Luck. Sports. Entertainment.
    Luck, sports, and entertainment are all completely legitimate, as are some lawsuits. They all have tremendous value to future generations. Besides, value to future generations is not the criterion to determine legitimate dispensation of property; the wishes of the rightful owner determines that. Also, in our society, we (officially) do not punish children for the sins of their ancestors. Are you suggesting we nationalize the Kennedy compounds because their patriarch was a bootlegger?


    It's only theirs if society is willing to enforce that claim. There is nothing sacred about prevailing property laws. They can easily be changed if society deem such actions to be desirable. The issue is whether we ought to do so.
    Incorrect. Property is a right, the same as freedom of speech, religion, association, etc. Your argument boils down to "might makes right," which is barbaric and completely antithetical to the concept of individual freedoms and Western Civilization.


    Are you suggesting that we should not let our sense of fairness interfere with the prevailing order of the universe? If so, why not?
    I am saying that the universe is inherently "unfair" if, by unfair, you mean that people have unequal talents. Nothing can be done about that. We were talking about envy, though, which has nothing to do with fairness, and everything to do with weakness of character and projection of rage at one's own incompetence. If you're truly bothered that someone has five cars and a yacht and a big house, the problem is with YOU, not him/her or society or whatever else you want to blame.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #73
    Member TacEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    96

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, very successful manager of a KFC retail.
    As minute as that sounds, retail can pay a lot (dunno about the fast food industry though...) and can allow a "store manager" access to corporate affairs very quickly. I have a co-worker who's sister started at McDonalds and now oversees the South East US McDonalds in several states, but she started as an hourly associate--not even supervisor.

    I suppose it's more about what one puts their mind to and what they believe they can do then what one actually has skills to do. If you believe in yourself, you develop the necessary skills to make it happen.
    INTP - Ti > Ne > Te > Ni > Fi > Se > Fe > Si

    I am not a Strange Loop, for I will always grow and mature.

    Society is a Strange Loop, preventing us from growing and maturing.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    As minute as that sounds, retail can pay a lot (dunno about the fast food industry though...) and can allow a "store manager" access to corporate affairs very quickly. I have a co-worker who's sister started at McDonalds and now oversees the South East US McDonalds in several states, but she started as an hourly associate--not even supervisor.

    I suppose it's more about what one puts their mind to and what they believe they can do then what one actually has skills to do. If you believe in yourself, you develop the necessary skills to make it happen.
    I dont know man, I'm a pretty firm believer in the Peter Principle.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

  5. #75
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    As minute as that sounds, retail can pay a lot (dunno about the fast food industry though...) and can allow a "store manager" access to corporate affairs very quickly. I have a co-worker who's sister started at McDonalds and now oversees the South East US McDonalds in several states, but she started as an hourly associate--not even supervisor.

    I suppose it's more about what one puts their mind to and what they believe they can do then what one actually has skills to do. If you believe in yourself, you develop the necessary skills to make it happen.
    Perhpas in the US that's considered "successful", but over here being the overseer of a part of a McDonalds chain would still be thought about as being way low on the ladder. I know this is partly bullshit-elitism, but hey.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #76
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TacEight View Post
    As minute as that sounds, retail can pay a lot (dunno about the fast food industry though...) and can allow a "store manager" access to corporate affairs very quickly. I have a co-worker who's sister started at McDonalds and now oversees the South East US McDonalds in several states, but she started as an hourly associate--not even supervisor.

    I suppose it's more about what one puts their mind to and what they believe they can do then what one actually has skills to do. If you believe in yourself, you develop the necessary skills to make it happen.
    Perhpas in the US that's considered "successful", but over here being the overseer of a part of a McDonalds chain would still be thought about as being way low on the ladder. I know this is partly bullshit-elitism, but hey.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #77
    Member TacEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    96

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know man, I'm a pretty firm believer in the Peter Principle.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle
    I do too! But hard work will get the "average Joe" MUCH further than the "average Joe" who doesn't work hard. There's still a major difference there.

    Also, just googled "retail salaries" and found this:

    http://www.careers-in-marketing.com/rtsal.htm
    INTP - Ti > Ne > Te > Ni > Fi > Se > Fe > Si

    I am not a Strange Loop, for I will always grow and mature.

    Society is a Strange Loop, preventing us from growing and maturing.

  8. #78
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    The question of ownership lies at the heart of envy. How is ownership defined and justified? Is it based on merit - work hard and be rewarded. Is it based on opportunity - I saw the land and took it, the people were willing to work for 2 cents an hour, the lady had dropped her purse, etc.

    It might be helpful to recalibrate the discussion of ownership away from the wealthy if that is a sensitive and distracting point. In a corporate capitalist society in which profit is the only goal, everyone's hands get dirty. For example, I bought a blouse at Walmart a few years ago for $15. I worked hard to earn the money I paid for it, so do I own the shirt based on merit? The low cost is also the result of someone perhaps like a 13-year-old girl working excessive hours/low pay as a seamstress in Mexico or China. The cashier likely worked only 30 hours a week at this job and had a second minimum wage job for 20-30 hours, so that neither employer paid for health insurance. Do I own the blouse based on opportunity?

    The idea that "all men are created equal" does not apply to external parameters. It is obvious that each person has a different set of genetic and environmental limitations. If it applies to the intrinsic value of a human being, then it means that under one set of external conditions a human being is the 13-year-old in the sweat-shop. Under another set of conditions a human being is the CEO of an exploitative corporation, and under another set, a human being is me. We either value humanity or external sets of conditions into which a human being manifests. When humanity is valued intrinsically because the external manifestations of a human being are largely the result of chance, then there is a reason to think ethically - that the treatment and well-being of one human implies a reason for the well-being of another. That I value my own life and treatment can only logically extend to an equivalent view of the sweatshop worker.

    In this thinking, the exploited individuals have basic human rights just as I do. If the seamstress was exploited, then I owe her something of my blouse. If the cashier is exploited, then part of it is theirs as well. My ownership is not justified on merit, but also opportunity. The danger of justifying ownership based on opportunity is that there is no real difference between someone who steals and exploits outside the law, or who in a small community commands an unwritten law, and the corporation who finances the system of law-making to bend to their benefit and favor. In this case there is no right of ownership, no merit, no intrinsic human value, but a system of ownership based on theft.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #79
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    1,650

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Besides, value to future generations is not the criterion to determine legitimate dispensation of property; the wishes of the rightful owner determines that.
    Says who? That is your personal value, not the universal truth.

    Also, in our society, we (officially) do not punish children for the sins of their ancestors.
    Exactly. To be consistent, we must not reward children for the deeds of their ancestors neither.

    Are you suggesting we nationalize the Kennedy compounds because their patriarch was a bootlegger?
    Absolutely. Inheriting the proceeds of crime is even more "wrong" than inheriting unearned wealth.

    Property is a right, the same as freedom of speech, religion, association, etc.
    There are no rights other than what we collectively decide to defend by force. We are perfectly free to decide which "rights" are worth defending.

    I am saying that the universe is inherently "unfair" if, by unfair, you mean that people have unequal talents. Nothing can be done about that.
    Nothing can be done about people having unequal abilities and luck, but much can be done to ensure that the disparity does not become great enough to result in social unrest that will weaken the society.

    If you don't care about fairness and believe that everyone deserves whatever they can get under prevailing circumstances, then why shouldn't the poor simply vote in a radical socialist government if they have the power? That's perfectly righteous in a democracy, isn't it?

  10. #80
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    How can economic value be "intrinsic?" It's completely based upon market interactions. That is what is meant by "all men are created equal."
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

Similar Threads

  1. Has anyone ever taken a real MBTI?
    By The Ü™ in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 06-05-2016, 09:57 PM
  2. How has developing your secondary function changed you?
    By SolitaryWalker in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 05-27-2007, 10:44 PM
  3. Envy: one of the darkest emotions?
    By Maverick in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-24-2007, 02:49 PM
  4. The Creature has Arrived
    By Varelse in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-26-2007, 12:57 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO