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  1. #51
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I've had a long day at work. I'm too tired to navigate the jumble of incoherent thoughts you call posts.
    I'm not interested in your day at work. So far as incoherent goes well the leap from envy to cannibas and taxes probably says it all.

  2. #52
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    Considering the rate at which civility between the two of us is dissolving, I'm just gonna say "die in a fire" and be done with it.


    Good day sir...

  3. #53
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Just call it greed. ENVY is just a term meant to distort that.

    GREED underpins the economy. 'Envy' is a needless, oportunistic abstraction.

  4. #54
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    I disagree. Sort of. Greed is the ultimate driving force behind capitalism, but envy is also important to keep people of the lower classes striving and/or putting their dollars back into the economy.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I disagree. Sort of. Greed is the ultimate driving force behind capitalism, but envy is also important to keep people of the lower classes striving and/or putting their dollars back into the economy.
    Yes. To me, 'envy' implies that one strives to obtain an item/good/etc. someone else has as a response to their possessing it; no one without money wants a big house and a Mercedes because someone richer possesses those things. they want it because it represents the 'good life', which is intrinsically desirable. Envy is directed at the success of other people, which is why those who believe that social Darwinism is somehow (to borrow a well worn term on this board) 'normative' will use it. That is why the term itself is a distortion, and politically motivated.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Yes. To me, 'envy' implies that one strives to obtain an item/good/etc. someone else has as a response to their possessing it; no one without money wants a big house and a Mercedes because someone richer possesses those things. they want it because it represents the 'good life', which is intrinsically desirable. Envy is directed at the success of other people, which is why those who believe that social Darwinism is somehow (to borrow a well worn term on this board) 'normative' will use it. That is why the term itself is a distortion, and politically motivated.
    Right. And most people without money would just like to own a normal house and have health insurance and be able to send their kids to college, and that really has nothing to do with greed nor envy, which is what is so fucking irritating about capitalism - a lot of what poor people want has nothing to do with envying the subjective success of another, or even greed for flashy and luxurious possessions. Also, I'm sure people in terrible poverty or hellish political conditions aren't driven by "greed" either.

    So what shall we call it, if it's not really envy, nor greed? Though greed is the top tier of capitalism, it's what causes a small percentage of asshats to step on other people simply for the sake of abusing power and amassing wealth beyond practical (or even luxurious) use.

    Of course, people have done that since time immemorial, you know - that whole mindless greed thing. History is full of it, even before the invention of capitalism. It seems like a very primitive and emotional condition which has very little to do with intellect, or even preserving one's own genetic offspring for future generations, so I don't think Social Darwinists have a leg to stand on.

  7. #57
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    Eh I never understood envy. In the US, if a homeless person wanted to become successful, they have to a) seek a church or other institute to help them find decent clothes, take a shower, etc. b) ask for assistance with a job interview. c) go interview at various places until they get a job. d) work very hard, get promoted.

    Perhaps not a millionaire, they are still doing well enough to get by on. Same applies to non-homeless, except they have it a lot easier. So why would I envy others, even if I'm only making 8, 10, 15, 20, 30 dollars an hour? Because someone else who worked hard to build an economic empire doesn't deserve it? How petty of me. No, I'd rather admit that if I wanted to, I could have gone out there and focused my life on making money or becoming rich instead of looking inward or having fun, but I chose to do otherwise. My choices in life are not grounds for me to envy others.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Considering the rate at which civility between the two of us is dissolving, I'm just gonna say "die in a fire" and be done with it.


    Good day sir...
    Another good representative of libertarians everywhere.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Yes. To me, 'envy' implies that one strives to obtain an item/good/etc. someone else has as a response to their possessing it; no one without money wants a big house and a Mercedes because someone richer possesses those things. they want it because it represents the 'good life', which is intrinsically desirable. Envy is directed at the success of other people, which is why those who believe that social Darwinism is somehow (to borrow a well worn term on this board) 'normative' will use it. That is why the term itself is a distortion, and politically motivated.
    I see what you're driving at but I do think its relative, Veblen's conspiscious consumption and leisure class theories where all to do with people making comparisons and deciding that those comparisons held the key to determining what the good life was in the first place.

    Hence its not simply greed, at least not in a quantitative sense, you dont simply want more, you want what someone else has. Therefore its envy, lots of the entertainment and TV reflects that like Cribs for instance or even advertising as it used to be when I was growing up (its more clever than it once was or perhaps I'm not watching the same channels and I'm missing it).

  10. #60
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    You wanna know why I was too busy to deal with you Lark.

    Because I was fucking too busy doing something about it. Why do you think I'm getting into politics.

    The difference between you and me is you have given up on capitalism, and think the problem is with capitalism itself.

    I just see the system as broken by becoming too entangled with the desires of powerful men.

    You're an ENTJ with extra time you have organizational abilities. Why waste your time starting a thread and bitching when you could get involved and start fixing it or changing it.

    Your fatalism on the subject tires me.

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