User Tag List

First 123412 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 140

  1. #11
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,024

    Default

    This implies that external forces have control over individual thoughts and feelings. Impact, agreed, control, only for individuals who allow it.

  2. #12
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    This implies that external forces have control over individual thoughts and feelings. Impact, agreed, control, only for individuals who allow it.
    They do.

    Perhaps it's more accurate to say they influence individual thoughts and feelings. They also partially comprise individual thoughts and feelings. You are not an island. A good deal of what you think is either inherited from a surrounding culture or is adapting/responding to parts of the culture presently.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  3. #13
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    This implies that external forces have control over individual thoughts and feelings. Impact, agreed, control, only for individuals who allow it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    They do.

    Perhaps it's more accurate to say they influence individual thoughts and feelings. They also partially comprise individual thoughts and feelings. You are not an island. A good deal of what you think is either inherited from a surrounding culture or is adapting/responding to parts of the culture presently.
    You may have missed the bolded in my post. Similar concept of having impact or influence but I stand firm on it being by individual consent.

    Say the Jones have a new car. Does this mean that we all feel that we must have the same new car? Not likely. The impact/influence implications are that some will feel they need one and run out to get one to match up to their neighbor. Others will bitterly resent or envy the Joneses for what they personally can't afford. And finally, there will be those who don't give a shit.

  4. #14
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    You may have missed the bolded in my post. Similar concept of having impact or influence but I stand firm on it being by individual consent.

    Say the Jones have a new car. Does this mean that we all feel that we must have the same new car? Not likely. The impact/influence implications are that some will feel they need one and run out to get one to match up to their neighbor. Others will bitterly resent or envy the Joneses for what they personally can't afford. And finally, there will be those who don't give a shit.
    If that's the distinction you are making, then I don't see why the idea posited in the OP, whether it is correct or not, requires that external forces must control people. It need only impact them to have the described result.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  5. #15
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If that's the distinction you are making, then I don't see why the idea posited in the OP, whether it is correct or not, requires that external forces must control people. It need only impact them to have the described result.
    Impact and degree of impact is differentiated by individual values and constraints. Impact isn't equivalent to result hence to suggest an overarching result would need a form of control.

    And anyways, any political position or rhetoric is solely posturing to bring as many sheep into line, no matter what side of the left/right divide the individuals fall into.

  6. #16
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    Directly to the OP:

    To be completely honest I believe that was the prime reason to encourage Capitalism. A system which implores that you get as much as you can in order to arrive on top can not end in any other way, but a developing envy.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Directly to the OP:

    To be completely honest I believe that was the prime reason to encourage Capitalism. A system which implores that you get as much as you can in order to arrive on top can not end in any other way, but a developing envy.
    I agree that I dont believe it could result in any other outcome than the institutionalisation of envy but as a caveat to that I would say that it is a certain sort of capitalism which has gone through a number of changes or reinventions which has resulted in that, ie leisure class, conspicious consumption, mass production, mass consumption, mass marketing.

    I would suggest that there where various reasons for encouraging capitalism, liberals like Adam Smith considered that it would be simultaneously libertarian and egalitarian, maximising production, harnessing greed or low motives, trusting not to benevolence which is generally second to prejudice anyway with the happy result that everyone experiences equality (of outcome not simply opportunity) by the finish. There where others, such as the Puritans and Quakers who thought it would bring people together, having a more social premise and involving requisit combination, aggregation, common productive effort than cottage economy, agrarian fifedoms or other earlier states of economy.

    Marx heralded it as a great advance because he thought socialist ideas premised upon benevolence and good will where bogus, capitalism's efficiency would eventually make it obsolete as anything other than a ruling class ideology, his whole criticism amounts to not much more than that and he and Engels felt economists like Ricardo and Mill dishonest only in so far as they failed to point out that capitalism had confounded the hopes of early theorists, such as Smith, could only do so and would do more so in the future.

    So I dont believe that envy was the aim at capitalism's institution or foundation, if it could be said to have had one, its gone through a series of changes and some where along the line the utility of envy recommended itself as an underlying principle sure to assist with its reproduction generation on generation so envy was institutionalised itself.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    It's all about balance and fairness. If a person wants what another have but is unwilling to work for it, then it's an unhealthy attitude. But it's equally unhealthy for a person to be willing to work hard and make sacrifices without any expectations of reaping the benefits of his effort.

    Extreme capitalism or socialism is bad.
    Not sure I agree with your definition of capitalism and socialism, it seems like you're associating capitalism with a work ethic and socialism with having your needs met, work ethics and getting your needs met could be associated with either or both to my mind, properly understood.

  9. #19
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    I can see that. Perhaps we could say then that what in fact is Capitalism was 'timed'? I mean to say that competition was the first stage if we look at it through a transformative lens and from there those who made it to the top through competition saw the power that they had amassed and so came the monopolies on all that was 'important' to the modernization of the world and as such those with power cut the upper class from the middle and lower class. Where the two lower classes still fought for competition to be at the higher end of middle class instead of being able to reach the higher class. Though, I don't suspect that those with power saw Actors/Actresses in the entertainment industry would get paid as much as they did and would have as much influence as they did and so they did not cap all the ends of the stage of development to keep others from reaching the top of the 'food chain'. However, the envy of beauty is just as strong as the envy for worldly things and as such those who are 'prettier' by set standards capitalized and capped that industry thus finalizing the set class system that we have today. So, yes, perhaps it started out noble, but as the saying goes 'Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." or some such.

  10. #20
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Impact and degree of impact is differentiated by individual values and constraints. Impact isn't equivalent to result hence to suggest an overarching result would need a form of control.
    Not necessarily. Individuals may differ in how they are affected, but something may have an impact that still has a clear, strong affect on population as a whole based on averages. That is, the amount to which people are pushed to behave a certain way by the impact of, say, a certain institution, may greatly out-size the amount to which people are unchanged or changed in the opposing direction.

    Then you have to consider 2nd, and 3rd, and Nth degree impact. That is the people who were not initially impacted may then be impacted by the marked change in behavior found in all the people who were initially impacted, and so forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    And anyways, any political position or rhetoric is solely posturing to bring as many sheep into line, no matter what side of the left/right divide the individuals fall into.
    I'm not sure what this statement is supposed to be in reference to.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

Similar Threads

  1. Has anyone ever taken a real MBTI?
    By The Ü™ in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 06-05-2016, 09:57 PM
  2. How has developing your secondary function changed you?
    By SolitaryWalker in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 05-27-2007, 10:44 PM
  3. Envy: one of the darkest emotions?
    By Maverick in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-24-2007, 02:49 PM
  4. The Creature has Arrived
    By Varelse in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-26-2007, 12:57 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO