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  1. #51
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Ok, let me rephrase: What is your motivation behind posting? What are you feeling when you decide to respond?

    I mean, most of your posts have mystical/poetic overtones, but don't really say anything substantial. Are you stretching your creative muscle?
    I do things for their own sake. My motivation is intrinsic. I enter flow and commune with you.

  2. #52
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I do things for their own sake. My motivation is intrinsic. I enter flow and commune with you.
    Ok, so do you murder people? Do you rape? Do you jump off cliffs? How is posting on this forum any different than doing any of those things?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I think that this touches on the crux of the problem. But it's not just the lack of privacy (I suspect that folks who live in small, traditional hunter-gatherer bands have almost zero privacy either), but the fact that these details of our lives are being permanently stored and made easily available to large numbers of people anywhere in the world who have no other basis on which to judge us, and are used as an "easy" way to make substantial judgements about us (and I'm not even mentioning the profit motive, which I find disgusting in this circumstance). How many people who went to college in the 80's ever got drunk and acted stupid at a party? Probably a lot. But very, very few of them were ever in a position, 3 years later, to have their prospective employer use evidence of that in making a decision about them. Their friends, who saw them acting stupid at the party, have a much more well-rounded base of information on which to make judgements.

    Personally, I'm pretty limited in what I want to expose on the internet. I was convinced, reluctantly, to join Facebook. But I've never posted anything there, and I don't participate in any of the "games" or other data-mining applications. So yes, I am concerned about it. I've always been pretty close with personal details, and have largely lived my entire life along the "if you don't want anyone to know, don't do it" principle. This makes me relatively "safe" in the modern world. This is a BAD thing. Let me tell you -- living your life as if you have to present a perfect image every minute lest someone take the most minute failing and use it to take you down is not good. So yeah. It's a bad thing.
    Literacy gave us empathy, creativity and the counter intuitive, while the telephone, the television and the internet are giving us presence.

    And we can't be present without being known. Being known is the acme of presence. For instance, celebrities want to be known more than anything else in the world.

    We are seeing the death of the private self and the rise of Presence with a capital P. We are all on, all the time. And just as the electric city never sleeps, nor does the electric self. We can be seen and heard anytime, anywhere, anywhere in the world.

    We are all now celebrities. We celebrate ourselves day and night, summer and winter, forever into the future.

  4. #54
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    I'm often astounded at how readily people expose personal information online, especially on social networking sites. Then again, much of it is trival crap that doesn't mean in anything in the grand scheme of things. Just my two cents.

  5. #55
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    I'm a very personal/private person. I've always been quite opposed to social networking websites. I do not put much of my personal life out there in a way that is traceable.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I do not care about the death of privacy. Frankly, I think it is the lack of enough information that really causes the harm in our society.
    It's the lack of knowing how to process information correctly that harms society. Information itself is more abundant than it ever has been. The abundance of contradictory information causes confusion unless one is able to clip the reasonable from the unreasonable.

    Personal information that ought to be private is easier to obtain by those who shouldn't have the privilege. That's what this discussion is about.

    A good example of this would be the light-speed humiliation that recently occurred to a homosexual college student. If it weren't for technology, his explicit and from-the-source information couldn't have spread like wild fire.

    Hell, all you have to do to steal someone's identity now in days is dig around in their trash heaps to find personal information that allows one to:

    "Ultimately, I decided to use the billing information for the bank managers’ Internet service providers as an access point for my attack. Using the information I gained from the bills, I contacted the managers and explained that I was from that company. I told them that we were updating our services and that, for them to continue to have Internet service, they would be required to install updated software. I explained that the software would be arriving within the next week."

    Not to mention hackers disseminating phishing software to steal personal information.

    It's not hard to figure out.

  7. #57
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    People need to learn how to deal with this new invasion of privacy...as it is mostly an invasion if you let it become one. If you're dumb enough to post retarded stuff on your Facebook page and even if you want to, you don't bother creating another account just for that purpose, then maybe you should learn the hard way.

  8. #58
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I think that this touches on the crux of the problem. But it's not just the lack of privacy (I suspect that folks who live in small, traditional hunter-gatherer bands have almost zero privacy either), but the fact that these details of our lives are being permanently stored and made easily available to large numbers of people anywhere in the world who have no other basis on which to judge us, and are used as an "easy" way to make substantial judgements about us (and I'm not even mentioning the profit motive, which I find disgusting in this circumstance). How many people who went to college in the 80's ever got drunk and acted stupid at a party? Probably a lot. But very, very few of them were ever in a position, 3 years later, to have their prospective employer use evidence of that in making a decision about them. Their friends, who saw them acting stupid at the party, have a much more well-rounded base of information on which to make judgements.
    This is what annoys me....when people judge you based on "data". This annoyance is less to do with internet privacy so much as any number attached to you to signify something about your worth or identity as a person. However, it is really the same principle. It's taking some "fact" out of context, allowing it to be blown out of proportion.

    So no, I don't put personal info on facebook. I don't even use my full, real name. It IS partially due to concern about who sees it, but even if someone sees it, I hardly post anyway and it's mostly rather impersonal stuff because I know once it's out there, it's out there. Even if it's nothing incriminating (as I am a rather dull person), it's still no one's business unless I choose to divulge it specifically to them.

    The part I think people worry about is info they did not seek to share with certain people being shared with them because once it is on the web it is out of your control. Forget social networking even...what about buying stuff on the web, applying to jobs, sites you visit, etc. There's a massive trail of data behind you, and you can't just destroy it with a paper shredder or burn the negatives.

    I actually wonder more about sites like THIS, where you think you're pretty much anonymous... Maybe no corporation is gathering info on you from here, but it may not be as hard for someone you know IRL to stumble upon as you think.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  9. #59
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    If things weren't so private those individuals who sought to steal from me would be caught before they could make a single purchase, does this not make sense to you?
    It doesn't work like that. Cybercriminals and cyberterrorists know what they are doing. They know how to be anonymous. No amount of legislation is going to have any effect on a determined and resourceful criminal.
    What I'm talking about here is legal exploitation.
    As for information not being knowledge, well that is just absurd. What you're doing there is making a distinction between what is useful information and what isn't.
    Yes. It's called critical thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    It's the lack of knowing how to process information correctly that harms society. Information itself is more abundant than it ever has been. The abundance of contradictory information causes confusion unless one is able to clip the reasonable from the unreasonable.
    Right. This is the age of Information Overload. Meanwhile, it's only a tiny (and frequently unethical) elite that actually understand the technology that makes modern life possible.

    Should we just accept this as a natural state of affairs? 'Survival of the cyberfittest'?
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And we can't be present without being known. Being known is the acme of presence. For instance, celebrities want to be known more than anything else in the world.
    This is an important point. How responsible is the 'cult of celebrity' for the death of privacy?
    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I think that this touches on the crux of the problem. But it's not just the lack of privacy (I suspect that folks who live in small, traditional hunter-gatherer bands have almost zero privacy either), but the fact that these details of our lives are being permanently stored and made easily available to large numbers of people anywhere in the world who have no other basis on which to judge us, and are used as an "easy" way to make substantial judgements about us (and I'm not even mentioning the profit motive, which I find disgusting in this circumstance). How many people who went to college in the 80's ever got drunk and acted stupid at a party? Probably a lot. But very, very few of them were ever in a position, 3 years later, to have their prospective employer use evidence of that in making a decision about them. Their friends, who saw them acting stupid at the party, have a much more well-rounded base of information on which to make judgements.
    Excellent point, kelric. It's the loss of privacy out of context that is key. It's the commercialization of privacy. The commodification of the individual.
    Personally, I'm pretty limited in what I want to expose on the internet. I was convinced, reluctantly, to join Facebook. But I've never posted anything there, and I don't participate in any of the "games" or other data-mining applications. So yes, I am concerned about it. I've always been pretty close with personal details, and have largely lived my entire life along the "if you don't want anyone to know, don't do it" principle. This makes me relatively "safe" in the modern world. This is a BAD thing. Let me tell you -- living your life as if you have to present a perfect image every minute lest someone take the most minute failing and use it to take you down is not good. So yeah. It's a bad thing.
    You get it. But most people don't seem to care.

    Far be it from me to restrict anyone's right to be a moron - unless it impacts me directly. As O'Hara point out:
    "When [society's] reasonable expectations [of privacy] diminish, as they have, by necessity [everyone's] legal protection diminishes."

    Added to that, now, for the first time ever, one is expected to have an online presence. If you don't, people assume you are hiding something, rather than just protecting your privacy. I don't use social networking sites but I used to maintain a profile on Linked In, foolishly believing the benefits in terms of exposure to employment opportunities would outweigh the risks. I've since removed it because of the way unscrupulous agencies mine and exploit that kind of data. So now, if a prospective employer goes looking for me they aren't going to find anything - and I have to wonder how that might damage my chances; as being a private person becomes a further and further departure from 'the norm'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I thought records go clean after 7 years?
    Who who would oversee such an operation, even if it were a legal requirement (which it isn't)?
    We have more stringent legislation around the storage and processing of personal data in the EU than you guys do; in the UK, the main piece of legislation is the Data Protection Act, 1988.
    But very few organisations fully comply with its provisions. And it's almost impossible to police. The UK government itself is one of the worst offenders in terms of keeping personal data private. (For example: http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...on-Britons.htm)

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I actually wonder more about sites like THIS, where you think you're pretty much anonymous... Maybe no corporation is gathering info on you from here, but it may not be as hard for someone you know IRL to stumble upon as you think.
    I'm pretty confident that Haight isn't selling your details to anyone, but yeah, anonymity on the web is largely a fallacy. And you give up the rights to your intellectual property as soon as you publish it anywhere like this. Everything you write, every pic you post, even private comms, belong to someone else, to use as they see fit. I can't get my head around the legitimacy of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #60
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    ...And you give up the rights to your intellectual property as soon as you publish it anywhere like this. Everything you write, every pic you post, even private comms, belong to someone else, to use as they see fit. I can't get my head around the legitimacy of that.
    From an individualistic/autonomous standpoint, I firmly agree with you, and it has bugged me from that angle.
    I'm going to momentarily brainstorm a few counter points, however, which might or might not be completely accurate but still helpful from the publisher's end...

    - Traditional publishing trades resources and distribution for publishing rights... they take the risk, the writer trades/shares ownership for a defined period of time in order to benefit from the publisher's marketing and distribution chain. (Generalizing here.) Online publishing isn't a lot different. Someone else is paying for the server, doing all the footwork, maintaining the means by which everyone this site is sharing their ideas and building a community all at no cost to themselves.

    - A traditional publisher can be legally liable for comments made by the authors they publish; same thing for Internet sites. They can also pursue the legal rights of the people who post on their site. If some jamoche steals your prose off this site and publishes it to make money, you might not be able to do much about it; but the larger site/publisher (if you've documented your works with them and have ownership) can stand in as a proxy.

    - The online publisher needs to "own" the material in people's posts in order to publish it internationally via the 'net. Basically, it's the same as publishing rights. Without those rights, the publisher can't transmit the info... or at least doesn't have any sort of legal standing to do so.

    - The publisher needs to "own" material in order to defend the integrity of the community. Members benefit from a community that is preestablished; there are people to "hear them speak." In turn, the posters give rights to the site so that the continuity of the site can be preserved; otherwise people could conceivably gut the community by claiming sole ownership over their work and pulling it. Once you post info on a communal site, it becomes "community property" in a sense -- you are part of something bigger than yourself, not isolated.


    Bottom line, though, the Internet is not free. You are taking advantage of someone else's resources in order to share your thoughts and ideas with others. It's not a 'right,' it's a business transaction -- although typically money is not being exchanged between poster and site owner. (It's more a barter system -- users supply ideas, site supplies the resources.) If a person doesn't like that, they are always free to self-publish... whether that means taking lots of risk and financial resources to publish hard copies of their work, or starting and maintaining their own site.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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