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  1. #1
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Default Do you believe in natural rights?

    Natural right - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Personally, I don't. The idea of anything being universal and absolute seems ludicrous to me. It's a religious concept. Now, I'm all for civil rights, and human rights. I just don't believe in "God endowed rights".

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    heart on fire
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    I believe in natural rights. Without the idea of inalienable natrual rights, we're sunk. Any excuse can be made to strip us of our individual rights.

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    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Nope, it's a scam, without any foundation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Nope, it's a scam, without any foundation.
    Aren't you a libertarian who believes in the natural right to property?

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    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Aren't you a libertarian who believes in the natural right to property?
    Nope, I am a passive nihilist, but I once was very influenced by libertarian thought, until I examined its axioms, and realised they have no foundation and are just wishful thinking. (1,5 years ago.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Nope, I am a passive nihilist, but I once was very influenced by libertarian thought, until I examined its axioms, and realised they have no foundation and are just wishful thinking. (1,5 years ago.)
    Ah, I've come to that realization myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I believe in natural rights. Without the idea of inalienable natrual rights, we're sunk. Any excuse can be made to strip us of our individual rights.
    That sounds like an appeal to the consequences of belief fallacy. This line of reasoning is fallacious because the proposed consequences of a belief have no bearing on whether the belief is true or false.

  7. #7
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    My personal jury is still out on that one.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That sounds like an appeal to the consequences of belief fallacy. This line of reasoning is fallacious because the proposed consequences of a belief have no bearing on whether the belief is true or false.

    There is a Truth higher than human authority. It can be reached through reason and the examination of ethical axioms for their logicalness and to find those that are true and those that are false. There is nothing fallacious about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    There is a Truth higher than human authority. It can be reached through reason and the examination of ethical axioms for their logicalness and to find those that are true and those that are false. There is nothing fallacious about this.
    It sounds to me like you are making three different claims here. The first of which is that there is a "Truth higher than human authority". It is a claim that there is an absolute truth. The next claim you make is "[the Truth] can be reached [by humans] through reason and the examination of ethical axioms." So you believe that not only is there an absolute truth, but people can understand it. Finally you say there is "nothing fallacious about this." This is falling back to where you were making the argument that natural rights must exist because bad things would probably happen if they did not. Now you are making the claim that not believing in an absolute truth will result in bad consequences, thereby "proving" the existence of the absolute truth. It's like saying, "there must be a God, otherwise morals would fall apart and humanity would descend into chaos." It doesn't prove anything, other than what you assume would happen if the claim was false. Which still falls under the same fallacy. Can anyone else see why I believe the concept of natural rights is a religion?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It sounds to me like you are making three different claims here. The first of which is that there is a "Truth higher than human authority". It is a claim that there is an absolute truth. The next claim you make is "[the Truth] can be reached [by humans] through reason and the examination of ethical axioms." So you believe that not only is there an absolute truth, but people can understand it. Finally you say there is "nothing fallacious about this." This is falling back to where you were making the argument that natural rights must exist because bad things would probably happen if they did not. Now you are making the claim that not believing in an absolute truth will result in bad consequences. Which still falls under the same fallacy. Can anyone else see why I believe the concept of natural rights is a religion?
    Humans can strive to discover higher truths just the same as they can strive to discover the workings of nature. We are limited by our human-ness, but we can use our intellect to strive for higher truths, to reach beyond ourselves. It is true that our sense perceptions alone will never sufffice to discover truth. However, through intuitive thinking/reasoning/logic, we can reach beyond ourselves.

    My personal opinion that rejecting natural rights is opening the gateway to having our rights stripped from us has no bearing on whether there is or is not a higher truth than human authority. I am of the opinion that rejecting the idea of higher truth negates the possibility of discovering that higher truth because it gives the assuption that there is nothing higher than human perception and after that we assume that human perception alone can suffice to discover truth and it cannot. Only through the use of higher reasoning can higher truth be reached for.

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