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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My personal opinion that rejecting natural rights is opening the gateway to having our rights stripped from us has no bearing on whether there is or is not a higher truth than human authority. I am of the opinion that rejecting the idea of higher truth negates the possibility of discovering that higher truth because it gives the assuption that there is nothing higher than human perception and after that we assume that human perception alone can suffice to discover truth and it cannot. Only through the use of higher reasoning can higher truth be reached for.
    Then what would you propose is a natural right?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Then what would you propose is a natural right?
    The right to mental liberty is the highest of all rights in my opinion.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    The right to mental liberty is the highest of all rights in my opinion.
    Mental liberty? Interesting. So if I was devout Christian and I raised my children by only allowing them to be exposed to Christian ideals, then wouldn't I be violating my children's right to mental liberty? They aren't being given the choice to think for themselves. How about if I went to the state and protested the teaching of evolution and sex in public schools?

    It seems there are a lot of people violating the natural right to "mental liberty".

  4. #14
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    To the OP, it does not appear that you read very carefully the article to which you have referred us. the opening sentence of which is:

    "A natural right is a universal right that is seen as inherent in the nature of ethics and not contingent on human actions or beliefs.

    "The idea of human rights descended from that of natural rights; some recognize no difference between the two..."

    You are for Human rights...and Civil rights (i.e.legal rights). I do not see (in this article) how natural or universal rights must be predicated on religious belief.

    From what I have read I would believe in natural or universal rights, without respect to a diety.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    From what I have read I would believe in natural or universal rights, without respect to a diety.
    I read the article. And then I said natural rights are a ludicrous concept. They are nothing but human beliefs, so they defy their own definition. Name one "natural right" that isn't defined by human beliefs. It's this illusionary concept that there are rights out there that can be defined outside of human perception.

    Just look at what you said. "I believe". You believe in rights that aren't based on beliefs. How is that possible outside of religion? What is your justification in believing something you can't percieve? How is that any different in believing in God or heaven?

    Now forgive me if I'm being crude. I just want people to provide me with some justification for natural rights beyond simply believing in a higher truth or being.

    Where this irritates me is when people make claims of natural rights based on writings like "We the people believe all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." I think those are fantastic civil rights, but not natural rights. We have capital punishment and abortion in this country. What does that say about our conception of the right to life? We also have prisons and taxes. What does that say about liberty? And we certainly don't let people do whatever they want. So how do we percieve, the pursuit of happiness? But of course, how does that famous first sentence in the Declaration of Independence begin? "We believe"! That's right, because all those rights that people consider "inalienable" are based on beliefs. They are "Creator endowed" and are therefore a religious construct.

    The Bill of Rights in the Constitution are amendments. Which means they were amended to the Constitution and can be amended. They are not universal or absolute rights. They are civil rights.

  6. #16

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    interesting rant...

    on the point of natural rights:
    life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are concepts which exist within us emotionally and intellectually, even if there was no government we would have these concepts in mind (although they may not be realized because, as you pointed out, humans are flawed and even with a government we infringe upon natural rights)

    Now for the part of it being a human belief:
    If we look at the sciences and where we originated from, we all come from the same ancestors, they came from the same molecules and elements constructed in a 99.9% similar fashion, hence we are essentially equal. We are naturally born free, and are only oppressed by others, thus we define liberty as a natural right.

    I think what your trying to argue is that it's not an absolute truth...hard to argue against considering we are all human and you can simply state the argument that our logic is flawed due to bias. Yet on the other side of the spectrum, you cannot prove that it is not a natural right, because once again I may argue that human bias limits us from understanding it.
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  7. #17
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    I don’t believe in any kind of rights. What we have are mutually assured freedoms. We all want free speech, religious freedom, privacy, fair trials, etc for ourselves so we establish a system to protect us. Occasionally one group tries to curtail the freedom of another group and hilarity ensues.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsung truth View Post
    interesting rant...


    on the point of natural rights:
    life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are concepts which exist within us emotionally and intellectually, even if there was no government we would have these concepts in mind (although they may not be realized because, as you pointed out, humans are flawed and even with a government we infringe upon natural rights)
    But these concepts exist only because human can have them "in mind".

    Now for the part of it being a human belief:
    If we look at the sciences and where we originated from, we all come from the same ancestors, they came from the same molecules and elements constructed in a 99.9% similar fashion, hence we are essentially equal. We are naturally born free, and are only oppressed by others, thus we define liberty as a natural right.
    There you go again. "We define liberty".

    I think what your trying to argue is that it's not an absolute truth...hard to argue against considering we are all human and you can simply state the argument that our logic is flawed due to bias. Yet on the other side of the spectrum, you cannot prove that it is not a natural right, because once again I may argue that human bias limits us from understanding it.
    Indeed, but ultimately natural rights are belief unto themselves. That is all I'm trying to argue. People believe in natural rights the same way they believe in God. There is no justification for it, only an assumption. I simply ask that people question that assumption when they make claims about what inalienable rights they do and do not have.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    I don't believe in any kind of rights. What we have are mutually assured freedoms. We all want free speech, religious freedom, privacy, fair trials, etc for ourselves so we establish a system to protect us. Occasionally one group tries to curtail the freedom of another group and hilarity ensues.
    I believe those are civil rights.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Now, I'm all for civil rights, and human rights.
    And what are those based on? If you deny that certain rights inhere and are inalienable, then you actually only accept a temporary injunction on the redefinition or suspension of civil and political freedoms. Your preference assumes, wrongly, pleasant acceptance of this or that right. But simple observation of the world shows that volition is preserved only by repulsion; if the definition of or justification for free will becomes arguable, it is subordinated by value.

    Finally, human comprehension of a thing doesn't subsume the thing under human invention.

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