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  1. #51
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I am going to echo Billy here a bit.
    What has changed?
    Because Kids have been bullying kids since kids were kids.

    Are the Kids today less able to cope with emotional issues?
    I think that kids being bullied are just less capable of handling it.

    Bullying happens all through life. Coworkers, bosses, even neighbors/strangers will try to bully one another in various ways. It may be with more tact than the bullying delivered by a 5th grader, but it's bullying nonetheless. It's something you have to learn to cope with, defend against, and be more resilient toward. Taking a kid out of the school and putting them in a new one teaches them absolutely ZERO life skills for when it happens to them as an adult. It may not be an easy process for the child, but it's something they're going to have to learn to deal with at some point in their life. Parents need to get involved, talk with the kid about the harassment. Get them involved in activities that they're good at so that they have something to have self-esteem about.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  2. #52
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I used to read Savage Love religiously.. but what happens to people like him sometimes.. Is things go to their head. Dan Savage has become everything he says he hates.. He is more intolerant than the intolerant people he speaks out against.

    I just think it's sad someone I used to respect has become a bad parody of himself
    Thomas Mann wrote: Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.

  3. #53
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy.
    I saw what he wrote and I don't agree with it. It goes against what I've seen with my own eyes, and maybe you're not convinced, but I am. Of course there are Christians who parade themselves as tolerant of homosexuality, but there are Christians who really are tolerant of the lifestyle. There are Christians who support gay marriage and who have no problem with it being legalized, despite the fact that they don't approve of homosexuality in itself. Yet he didn't feel the need to acknowledge that.

    If you spend your time talking about how X lifestyle is so wrong (christians, for ex) and your kid goes out and bullies one, is it really just a coincidence? I guess it's just a coincidence that gay kids are getting bullied in conservative areas.
    Gay kids get bullied in non-conservative areas, and by non-Christians. Sometimes it is about the way you convey the message. If the parent is telling their child to love and accept everyone, no matter their lifestyle, but not to necessarily follow that lifestyle, how is that inciting hate? And most of the extreme bullying cases are coming from high schoolers, who actually have the ability to form hateful opinions on their own.

    There's a difference between being angry at a religious group that directly incites hatred toward you vs. directly inciting hatred for ideological reasons. Yes, some take it too far. But there's still a difference.
    Except he directly attacked this person and told them that they were partially responsible for gay bullying. A woman who wasn't inciting any type of hatred; someone who came to him in a respectful manner. I'm not saying he had to be respectful, or that he has to kiss up to Christians, but don't preach about one thing and then do the other. And if he's going to shit on someone, why shit on someone who tried to reach out to him?


    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Fight intolerance and insensitivity with intolerance and insensitivity.. Well done Dan Savage !! Well fucking done!!
    Exactly.

  4. #54
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Sort of. I'm not sure he's blanketing all Christians... just the ones who oppose equal rights for gays. The fact is, these people DO NOT fight divorce or interfaith marriage, as he mentioned, with anywhere near the fervor they fight fay marriage. Many even engage in such acts. A lot of types of discrimination have been institutionalized, or are spread by religion. A lot of racist and sexist material and arguments originated in the Bible. I don't think anyone, Savage included, would argue ALL Christians at times when these arguments existed were bad or helped keep people down, just those who A) believed them themselves, even if their support went no farther than "I don't own slaves or hold ill-will toward them, but even Jesus says a slave should obey its master and slavery is okay!" or someone who claims "women are clearly inferior in the Bible, they shouldn't have the same rights" or B) someone who supports congregation that spreads these ideas. No matter how benign these thoughts were, on their backs come more and more extreme views. On the other hand, Harriet Beecher Stowe was a Christian, but anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't accuse her of being racist.

    Don't you see how it could be confusing for a child to be raised in a situation where, when a kid asks "Say, dad, are gay people different or should they be treated differently" and the dad says "well, no, don't treat them differently from anyone else" and then the kid says "So they are afforded all the same respect and rights as any of my other friends" and the dad goes "oh, no, they can't have the same rights! Their lifestyle offends God, you know, the one who loves you and died for you. Just remember, treat them like anyone else in person, just not, you know, politically or in larger social terms! They're just as good as anyone else! Except also God says they are in a state of sin, like a criminal. So, yeah. They're just like us. Have all our rights and respect, except when they don't."

    That isn't a mixed message to you?
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Sort of. I'm not sure he's blanketing all Christians... just the ones who oppose equal rights for gays. The fact is, these people DO NOT fight divorce or interfaith marriage, as he mentioned, with anywhere near the fervor they fight fay marriage. Many even engage in such acts. A lot of types of discrimination have been institutionalized, or are spread by religion. A lot of racist and sexist material and arguments originated in the Bible. I don't think anyone, Savage included, would argue ALL Christians at times when these arguments existed were bad or helped keep people down, just those who A) believed them themselves, even if their support went no farther than "I don't own slaves or hold ill-will toward them, but even Jesus says a slave should obey its master and slavery is okay!" or someone who claims "women are clearly inferior in the Bible, they shouldn't have the same rights" or B) someone who supports congregation that spreads these ideas.

    Don't you see how it could be confusing for a child to be raised in a situation where, when a kid asks "Say, dad, are gay people different or should they be treated differently" and the dad says "well, no, don't treat them differently from anyone else" and then the kid says "So they are afforded all the same respect and rights as any of my other friends" and the dad goes "oh, no, they can't have the same rights! Their lifestyle offends God, you know, the one who loves you and died for you. Just remember, treat them like anyone else in person, just not, you know, politically or in larger social terms! They're just as good as anyone else! Except also God says they are in a state of sin, like a criminal. So, yeah. They're just like us. Have all our rights and respect, except when they don't."

    That isn't a mixed message to you?
    But gays themselves can't decide if they want to be different or just like everyone else.
    Its a great political cause when they want something their way, but Politics are the enemy when it goes against what they want.
    They are at the stage in their own cultural evolution of wanting their cake and to eating it too.

    "Don't single me out for being gay, But I'll see you at the next pride parade where I will dress in ways that really ought to get me arrested, but If I do get arrested I will scream prejudice.. see the law doesn't apply to me.. I'm gay"

    And away we go..

  6. #56
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Well, they are arrested if they break laws in those parades. But they file the paperwork to hold those parades, plan them in advance, just like festivals for Scottish or Irish pride. Hell, St. Patrick's Day is a big Irish pride festival, but if you break the law, you get busted.

    See, how they dress there: If you want, you can dress like that! Men or women of all kinds! So long as it isn't actual indecent exposure, you too can do it! "Ought to get arrested" is a subjective claim, and the fact is it DOESN'T get you arrested.

    And where is this gay guy arrested for actually breaking a law, bitching about being singled out? If he exists, show me the huge support he's gotten. Cause I ain't seen it.

    And a lot of gay pride parades are for gay rights. What if they did get arrested, or even broke the law in a mild fashion for such a cause? Well, that same argument goes for Civil Rights sit-ins.

    You'd have to argue, for people fighting for equal rights in 1960s:

    "Don't single me out for being black, But I'll see you at the next sit-in and be trespassing or loitering, but If I do get arrested I will scream prejudice.. see the law doesn't apply to me.. I'm black"

    Yeah, those people who want a right everyone else has, they're always so privileged by the law.

    Also, as for the start of your argument "Gays themselves can't decide if they want to be different or like everyone else"

    I take this to mean

    A) Gays are always outlandishly dressed and crazy? Cause the fact is, most gay people aren't like that. Some gay people are really loud and annoying. Sort of like straight people.

    or

    B) Gays choose to be gay, to which there is a lot of evidence to the contrary, not to mention logic to the contrary.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  7. #57
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Apparently there's a series of videos out for a project called "It Gets Better", started by relationship columnist Dan Savage. I watched part of one video on msnbc- had to turn it off...makes me wonder if i have a stronger feeling preference than i/ others think, but anyway, here it is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax96cghOnY4


    EDIT: So i scroll back and see references to Dan Savage, but none to this...coincidence? heh.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Well, they are arrested if they break laws in those parades. But they file the paperwork to hold those parades, plan them in advance, just like festivals for Scottish or Irish pride. Hell, St. Patrick's Day is a big Irish pride festival, but if you break the law, you get busted.

    See, how they dress there: If you want, you can dress like that! Men or women of all kinds! So long as it isn't actual indecent exposure, you too can do it! "Ought to get arrested" is a subjective claim, and the fact is it DOESN'T get you arrested.

    And where is this gay guy arrested for actually breaking a law, bitching about being singled out? If he exists, show me the huge support he's gotten. Cause I ain't seen it.

    And a lot of gay pride parades are for gay rights. What if they did get arrested, or even broke the law in a mild fashion for such a cause? Well, that same argument goes for Civil Rights sit-ins.

    You'd have to argue, for people fighting for equal rights in 1960s:

    "Don't single me out for being black, But I'll see you at the next sit-in and be trespassing or loitering, but If I do get arrested I will scream prejudice.. see the law doesn't apply to me.. I'm black"

    Yeah, those people who want a right everyone else has, they're always so privileged by the law.

    Also, as for the start of your argument "Gays themselves can't decide if they want to be different or like everyone else"

    I take this to mean

    A) Gays are always outlandishly dressed and crazy? Cause the fact is, most gay people aren't like that. Some gay people are really loud and annoying. Sort of like straight people.

    or

    B) Gays choose to be gay, to which there is a lot of evidence to the contrary, not to mention logic to the contrary.
    Ok that is some very interesting takes on what I am saying.

    I never said the parade was right or wrong.. I said it's case of don't single me out for being gay.. But single me out for being gay.. The parade says "I am different". Maybe in your country it's a political cause?. I live in Canada where gay marriage is legal. SO here, it's a celebration of culture. SO does the difference exist or not? Either sexuality is a reason to be different or its not. Its says, treat me differently I have special needs based on my sexuality, but don't treat me differently based of my sexuality.

    I am not being subjective about how people dress during the parade. Laws are clearly being broken. It's in the criminal code

    Section 173 of the Canadian Criminal Code prohibits "indecent" acts, and exposure of the genitals to anyone under 14 years old. Nude sunbathing,[2] and streaking[3][4] have been specifically recognized by provincial courts as not falling under the definition of an "indecent act".

    Section 174 prohibits nudity (or being "so clad as to offend against public decency or order") in view of the public. The courts have excepted nude swimming from this statute. [5] The consent of the Attorney General is specifically required to bring a case under this section.


    Many people march in the parade exposing genitalia.

    A) Gays are always outlandishly dressed and crazy? Cause the fact is, most gay people aren't like that. Some gay people are really loud and annoying. Sort of like straight people.
    I can't see what you are paraphrasing here .. I said nothing of the sort.. I am discussing political inequity , not gay bashing.

    B) Gays choose to be gay, to which there is a lot of evidence to the contrary, not to mention logic to the contrary.
    Where are you getting this from??

    FYI.. I know for a fact people are born gay.. I know the exact science behind it, I know why some men are macho gay.. some are feminine gay and why some very feminine men are straight.

  9. #59
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Kicking and Kissing Ass

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Why is our society so broken?
    Context is everything. So if you live in a bullying society, you can expect its members to bully.

    If you own, control and print the Reserve Currency of the entire world. If you have about 800 military bases in foreign countries, as well as twelve battle fleets roaming the oceans, and control of near space orbiting the Earth, and operate the world's largest propaganda machine, Hollywood, why wouldn't you, as you say in your vulgar way, "Kick ass".

    Gosh, you "kick ass", and insist we "kiss ass", just like any schoolyard bully.

  10. #60
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    I think I did misinterpret your meaning. Here in America gay marriage and gay adoption are illegal in many states. You see a lot of people arguing these rights should not be afforded based on Biblical ideas (and paying special attention to this issue (in the amount of tens of millions of dollars) what is honestly a fairly tenuous call for man/woman marriage, since the Bible's only passage explicitly about homosexuality is about killing them, and is in a book of the Old Testament full of antiquated rules no Christian abides by today). These are the people I'm talking about and I think Dan Savage was referring to. Christians, in general, aren't always pushing these ideas. I personally know some who reject that part of American Christian dogma.

    As for what your point was more accurately: obviously, gays should also not get privileges other people do not have either. If they break the law and are overly lewd, yeah, they should be punished for it as any other person would. This is sort of an the opposite extreme of what I (and I think Savage) gets at: when any group lays claim to rights not available to other groups, and when they teach their children about these 'special rights', the result is going to be people who assume they are better or worse than others.

    And just as I believe this only applies to Christians who think that other groups deserve less or that they have rights others do not, so should only gays with a similar attitude be held accountable. Neither you nor Savage should make blanket statements about large and varied groups, as these also cause people to make judgments based on superficial aspects of character like creed or sexual orientation, and retrospectively, I don't think either of you intended to. However, both of you have gripes with certain subgroups within Christianity or the gay community, which is fine if justified. I found Dan Savage's reasoning sensible. If these people are breaking laws and expecting not to be punished, your gripe is also sensible.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

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