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  1. #41
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I am going to echo Billy here a bit.
    What has changed?
    Because Kids have been bullying kids since kids were kids.

    Is the press just reporting it more?

    When I went to High School.. it was violent..
    Did perhaps the crackdown on violence lead to more subtle form of bullying.?

    Are the Kids today less able to cope with emotional issues?
    Have we over protected and molly coddled them to the point of them not being able to cope with hardship?
    Possible. It may be more subtle and more persistent. Additionally, in the age of the internet, it seems like one can bully at all times via social networking sites without the parents being any the wiser. Perhaps it has become more incessant and more about mentally breaking down the kid?

    Or perhaps it is just reported more.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Einnas's Avatar
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    It is sad some people have to make others feel bad just to make themselves feel better and this leads to suicide of the victim. I so hope that the bully never gets to close their eyes ever again.
    "...Have you fallen in love with the wrong person yet?"
    Jace said, "Unfortunately, Lady of the Haven, my one true love remains myself."
    "At least," she said, "you don't have to worry about rejection, Jace Wayland"
    "Not necessarily. I turn myself down occasionally, just to keep it interesting"

    - The City Of Bones

    Here is my blog where I post my thoughts and feelings. Please have a go and comment if you like.

  3. #43
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Gay author/journalist/pundit Dan Savage posted his thoughts on, in particular, the gay kids who have committed suicide as a result of bullying, indicting even more benign and reserved Christians whom oppose gay rights in any fashion in his free online column 'Savage Love' (a usually light-hearted column generally reserved for questions about abnormal expressions of sexuality). In some ways, it parallels our questions regarding parents raising bullies, perhaps even when they may not fully intend to.

    It's an interesting read:

    Letter submitted to column:

    I was listening to the radio yesterday morning, and I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.
    If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man, and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your viewpoint.
    To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.
    Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future.
    L.R.

    Reply:

    I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
    No, wait. I’m not. Gay kids are dying. So let’s try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.
    A question: Do you “support” atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there’s no “Christian” movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying.
    Why the hell not?
    Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it’s clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are “better or more worthy” than others.
    And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
    Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not “sinners.” Gay and lesbian children.
    Try to keep up: The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of “faithful Christians,” and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don’t have to explicitly “encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate” queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It’s here, it’s clear, and we’re seeing the fruits of it: dead children.
    Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?
    Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day-in, day-out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false “followers of Christ” they call Mom and Dad.
    Anyone have any opinions on his take on these very sad events?
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  4. #44
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Homophobia, like racism, is here to stay and it was fucked up that he used that person as a fresh lawn to shit on.

    Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it’s clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are “better or more worthy” than others.
    Oh come on, I'm willing to bet he doesn't see everyone as equal.

    And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
    Is he a liberal? He sounds like a fucking liberal. I don't know one Christian who teaches their children to hate gays. Maybe not to accept the lifestyle, but to accept the person and racists barely give that benefit to people unlike them. Bullies are accountable for themselves and they have the ability to stop bullying. No one else is to blame for their own personal choices.

    And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don’t have to explicitly “encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate” queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It’s here, it’s clear, and we’re seeing the fruits of it: dead children.
    So it's okay for him to mock this person and their religion, someone who came to him in a non-aggressive manner, but it's just so damn awful to mock the queers and the trannies? It doesn't make sense and it doesn't solve anything, but maybe it's just like a said. He just wanted a fresh lawn to shit on.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Einnas's Avatar
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    He is darn rude. He could have kept the polite tone. God he makes me angry! I should not have read that!
    "...Have you fallen in love with the wrong person yet?"
    Jace said, "Unfortunately, Lady of the Haven, my one true love remains myself."
    "At least," she said, "you don't have to worry about rejection, Jace Wayland"
    "Not necessarily. I turn myself down occasionally, just to keep it interesting"

    - The City Of Bones

    Here is my blog where I post my thoughts and feelings. Please have a go and comment if you like.

  6. #46
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    Fight intolerance and insensitivity with intolerance and insensitivity.. Well done Dan Savage !! Well fucking done!!

  7. #47
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    Is he a liberal? He sounds like a fucking liberal. I don't know one Christian who teaches their children to hate gays. Maybe not to accept the lifestyle, but to accept the person and racists barely give that benefit to people unlike them. Bullies are accountable for themselves and they have the ability to stop bullying. No one else is to blame for their own personal choices.
    If you'd actually read the article, his point is that implicit teaching of hatred isn't needed - when the kids hear "don't accept that lifestyle", and hear their parents talking about how it's wrong and shouldn't be recognized, you really think they're mature enough to "hate the sin, not the sinner"? I'm not so convinced. If you spend your time talking about how X lifestyle is so wrong (christians, for ex) and your kid goes out and bullies one, is it really just a coincidence? I guess it's just a coincidence that gay kids are getting bullied in conservative areas.
    So it's okay for him to mock this person and their religion, someone who came to him in a non-aggressive manner, but it's just so damn awful to mock the queers and the trannies? It doesn't make sense and it doesn't solve anything, but maybe it's just like a said. He just wanted a fresh lawn to shit on.
    There's a difference between being angry at a religious group that directly incites hatred toward you vs. directly inciting hatred for ideological reasons. Yes, some take it too far. But there's still a difference.

    He's definitely needlessly abrasive here, and clearly emotionally invested in the topic - but he still has a good point.
    -end of thread-

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    If you'd actually read the article, his point is that implicit teaching of hatred isn't needed - when the kids hear "don't accept that lifestyle", and hear their parents talking about how it's wrong and shouldn't be recognized, you really think they're mature enough to "hate the sin, not the sinner"? I'm not so convinced. If you spend your time talking about how X lifestyle is so wrong (christians, for ex) and your kid goes out and bullies one, is it really just a coincidence? I guess it's just a coincidence that gay kids are getting bullied in conservative areas.

    There's a difference between being angry at a religious group that directly incites hatred toward you vs. directly inciting hatred for ideological reasons. Yes, some take it too far. But there's still a difference.

    He's definitely needlessly abrasive here, and clearly emotionally invested in the topic - but he still has a good point.
    I am taking communications right now.. and I can assure you that by being an abrasive jerk , he is doing himself no service and his message will be lost to most because of the poor delivery.

  9. #49
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I can't argue on that. He's not very diplomatic about disagreeing with anyone - but that's not really his intention, his intention is to write an interesting article that will attract attention to the issue (outrage is still attention). The people who usually read his columns would probably not be driven away - his typical audience is very different from the letter-writer.
    -end of thread-

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I can't argue on that. He's not very diplomatic about disagreeing with anyone - but that's not really his intention, his intention is to write an interesting article that will attract attention to the issue (outrage is still attention). The people who usually read his columns would probably not be driven away - his typical audience is very different from the letter-writer.
    I used to read Savage Love religiously.. but what happens to people like him sometimes.. Is things go to their head. Dan Savage has become everything he says he hates.. He is more intolerant than the intolerant people he speaks out against.

    I just think it's sad someone I used to respect has become a bad parody of himself

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