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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Some thoughts.

    Apparently pets were still inside the home and died in the fire. Three dogs and a cat.

    As for the firefighters, what strikes me as particularly odd is that they went all the way out there and had their equipment ready in order to protect the nearby property of those who had paid, but they did not protect the Cranick family's home. That just sounds like spite.

    Also, Gene Cranick apparently offered to pay for the service as he was making his emergency call. Of course I understand why having people pay on the spot can't normally be the policy, but it would seem hard to justify this kind of thing on a policy technicality.

    When I look at this, I do indeed think someone should find a way to make it a tax-funded service. Technically, by the rules, this guy did incur the price has now payed. But I don't think those should be the rules. I do not think that a matter this critical should be driven by a toll fee. I also have to wonder if there are means of exemption. There often are with taxes, but who's to say about this?

    At any rate, a doctor can't let an uninsured person die of health complications in front of him/her, and a police officer can't let a tax evader be beaten to death in front of him/her. I consider these good things. The same standard should apply to firefighters.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    It's an incredibly unpopular reality, but the rules are simple.

    To receive the service you have to pay in advance.

    They should have charged the guy a high markup fee and put it out.

    I wonder how the annual fee is marketed and distributed and how clear this is made. Do they send out flyers stating that out of jurisdiction residents MUST pay the fee to receive service?

    This is an unfortunate reality of living in a small rural community. I live in a DC suburb. There was a very small fire right down the street from me yesterday. Nearly four trucks and two ambulances showed up. I saw another showing up later and turning around because they weren't needed. They were from a variety of fire departments - I think three different ones in total. Hearing all the commotion I went down the street to examine but there was no smoke, no apparent fire, and they were already rolling back the hoses.

    Sending out these big diesel rigs and at least 20 guys/gals for basically nothing must have cost a lot. But I live in a densely populated area with a large tax base, so they can afford it. If you live in the middle of nowhere, there are dangerous realities that go along with that.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  3. #23
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Some thoughts.

    Apparently pets were still inside the home and died in the fire. Three dogs and a cat.

    As for the firefighters, what strikes me as particularly odd is that they went all the way out there and had their equipment ready in order to protect the nearby property of those who had paid, but they did not protect the Cranick family's home. That just sounds like spite.

    Also, Gene Cranick apparently offered to pay for the service as he was making his emergency call. Of course I understand why having people pay on the spot can't normally be the policy, but it would seem hard to justify this kind of thing on a policy technicality.

    When I look at this, I do indeed think someone should find a way to make it a tax-funded service. Technically, by the rules, this guy did incur the price has now payed. But I don't think those should be the rules. I do not think that a matter this critical should be driven by a toll fee. I also have to wonder if there are means of exemption. There often are with taxes, but who's to say about this?

    At any rate, a doctor can't let an uninsured person die of health complications in front of him/her, and a police officer can't let a tax evader be beaten to death in front of him/her. I consider these good things. The same standard should apply to firefighters.
    I agree with all this. And it makes me very sad that those animals died such a horrible death unnecessarily. People make me angry sometimes.
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  4. #24
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    I'd be cautious of invading anyone's property with no signed indemnity in place. Is there one in place when residents pay the $75 fee?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Trentham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Also, Gene Cranick apparently offered to pay for the service as he was making his emergency call. Of course I understand why having people pay on the spot can't normally be the policy, but it would seem hard to justify this kind of thing on a policy technicality.
    I agree with this. If he offered to pay cash on the spot, there was no good reason for them not to accept (aside from a simple "dem's da rulez" which is never in itself a good reason).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I wonder how the annual fee is marketed and distributed and how clear this is made. Do they send out flyers stating that out of jurisdiction residents MUST pay the fee to receive service?
    A good friend of mine lives in another part of Obion County. I'll see if he knows the answer to this.
    83% I 70% N 64% T 73% P | 5w4 sp/so/sx | Chaotic Good

  6. #26
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    He had paid the fee for the 3 years prior to this year. This is what I read, anyway.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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  7. #27
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Why did this family need to pay this $75? Why isn't the cost of the fire department included in general taxes? Is this some kind of weird 'fear of socialism' shit? Some kind of for-profit fire department?

    It honestly seems like someone looked at the healthcare debate, realized the socialist nature of the fire department, and instead of saying "wait, firefighting kinda works, and has for decades, including during the depths of the Cold War" they said "can't let the communists get in this way either!"

    Do these people's taxes not cover their ability to not get raped, or to not have their children molested? Do poor or homeless folks in this town just have to accept getting murdered or assaulted while the cops watch?

    This system is also inefficient. Do the firefighters need to stop and check records before responding to a bona fide emergency? What if the system is down or there's some misinformation in there? And if people had been inside instead of animals? Is it "sorry, no you didn't pay 75 bucks, so you gotta burn to death!"

    Bamboo, that unpopular reality you relate is not true for a lot of social commodities. People who lack the money to pay taxes still maintain rights, which are, in just societies, protected by authorities in the state. They may use roads. In most places, they have the services of the local fire department. This sort of thing honestly makes me wonder: is it okay yo have a society where the homeless are murdered or raped? So long as the perpetrators keep it to the homeless, who do not pay in any meaningful fashion for the police force. Essentially: to what degree are human rights dependent on income?
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  8. #28
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Why did this family need to pay this $75? Why isn't the cost of the fire department included in general taxes? Is this some kind of weird 'fear of socialism' shit? Some kind of for-profit fire department?
    I don't think socialism has anything to do with it. As has been stated throughout the thread, this fire department has a primary jurisdiction which is tax funded and an outer jurisdiction where they provide services "as a favor". These outer jurisdictions do not have their own fire department. In these outer jurisdictions, they charge a $75 annual fee for service.

    Clearly, they enforce this harshly.

    Bamboo, that unpopular reality you relate is not true for a lot of social commodities. People who lack the money to pay taxes still maintain rights, which are, in just societies, protected by authorities in the state. They may use roads. In most places, they have the services of the local fire department. This sort of thing honestly makes me wonder: is it okay yo have a society where the homeless are murdered or raped? So long as the perpetrators keep it to the homeless, who do not pay in any meaningful fashion for the police force. Essentially: to what degree are human rights dependent on income?
    Human rights are dependent on income in the following situations:

    - when a service lacks the funding to operate, it may choose to limit it's service.
    - when a service is stretched by many people who use the service without paying, it may limit it's service. OR it will raise it's general fees, so that persons who do pay will now pay more.
    - also, in some cases, human rights are defined variably without respect to income.

    You could make the argument that the United States was founded on the basis of the protection of life, liberty, and property - and that property protection is an unalienable right.

    But beyond all that, I'm not telling you how things should be. I'm telling you how they are. This is common in rural areas with lowish general income and low density. Go to any community like this and you will find that they have roads but they are not well maintained or are gravel and dirt.

    That they have a police force which is centered in the "main street" area if there is one, and they will come quick as they can to help you, but if you are 20 minutes away and there are multiple emergencies, they might not be able to get to you for a long while.

    You might argue that access to clean water is an unalienable right - but if you want water you need a spring or a well. And you need to test it to make sure that the water is clean and safe. No government body looks out for this for you.

    Animal control exists, but if a bear or a coyote is sniffing around your house and attacking your dog - you're going to have to scare it off or shoot it yourself, because animal control won't come out in the middle of the night.

    Trash pickup service - common in urban areas, is a pay-for service in many rural areas. Either pay the fee or have gross trash laying around. Smart consumers may learn to compost what they can. Enterprising individuals will provide a pay for service to haul trash away to the county dump for you.

    In the winter, they may plow the roads - eventually, but you need to have a stock pile of food and supplies and propane/wood so you don't die in a blizzard.

    Things have changed a lot, but even in 2010 - living in a rural area means a lack of service and that you are going to have to do things yourself, or pay a premium to have it done for you. That's how it works.

    It would be intelligent for the people in that community to establish their own fire department or try to attach themselves to another larger county. Or to make sure they pay the fee if they want their house not to burn down. Or force the fire department - perhaps getting the head guy fired and replacing him - to provide service. But then the fire department may not be able to provide the same level of service it did before.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    A truly hideous pettiness and materialism.

  10. #30
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    They could have and should have put the fire out at full cost. Bill him $20,000 if that's what it comes to. But they shouldn't have let it burn. Especially when he offered to pay whatever they charged.
    You lose.

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