User Tag List

First 12

Results 11 to 18 of 18

  1. #11

    Default

    To be honest I like the sorts of sociological examination of political ideology which transcend left and right wing in a formal sense. It could be my thinking function and analytical interests.

    I think the point of declasse individuals having a tangible sense of grievance perhaps greater than that of the under privileged is a good one, I definitely believe this is the case, they are also more likely to have a greater impact when mobilised. Marx made this distinction between proletariat and lumpen proletariat and others have made it since.

    A lot of the genuinely excluded, marginalised and under privileged are accustomed to their situation, they dont fight in a head on mutually assured destruction sort of way when oppressed or treated unjustly, instead its more often that a sort of passive aggressive or indirect protest. As a result they are natures survivors, can exist under any sort of regime, although they arent likely to effect regime change or revolution.

  2. #12
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Well the defining features the author defines are

    [List]
    Yes, but what are they defining? In the essay, the author seems to make some reference to a sort of false conservative, and a true conservative, with the ideologues most people call conservatives being the false ones (in other words, the real conservative is the complacent monarch, as they come closer to what conservatism is supposedly claimed and defined to be).

    Whenever you have discussions of two very different things that go by the same name, it usually becomes a tedious affair to sort out the terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Which ones are you having difficulty with?
    If it can be said I'm having difficulty, then I am having difficulty with all of the political groups terms. Define for me a conservative, a reactionary, and a right-winger. Nothing that is said about them being separate can make any sense until they are given discrete definitions.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  3. #13
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    In the essay, the author seems to make some reference to a sort of false conservative, and a true conservative,
    No, not at all. Where does he say that?

    I'm confused. You appeared to get the point on Post #2, page#1, but now appear not to.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #14
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    That's how I'm understanding this thesis thus far. I'll still have to read through the original piece to get a better grasp of what the author is arguing here.
    He is basically a leftist trying to explaining to other leftists the pwoer of conservatism and why it is able to do all the things that, supposedly, only the left should be able to do.

    The original peice is not that long and if you thought my attempt at a summarry was interesting, you will enjoy it.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #15
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    No, not at all. Where does he say that?

    I'm confused. You appeared to get the point on Post #2, page#1, but now appear not to.
    And what I said doesn't conflict with my first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Indeed, a truly conservative individual could not, by definition, be someone who attempts to leave a socio-political mark.

    One might then think to call all of the supposed conservative ideologues regressives, a phrase that is occasionally used.
    From the very start I was referencing authenticity vs. unauthenticity. And while the author at no point explicitly draws a line between the authentic and inauthentic conservative, and continues to use the word conservative to describe the ideologues, Robin does repeatedly draw a distinction between what conservatives themselves (and their enemies) academically believe a conservative to be, and historically what so-called conservatives have really have been.

    It seems the best part of the essay to demonstrate this is when the author said:

    Oakeshott’s view of the conservative—and it is widely shared,
    on the Left and the Right—is not an insight; it is a conceit. It overlooks
    the fact that conservatism invariably arises in response to a
    threat to the old regime or after the old regime has been destroyed.
    Oakeshott is describing the old regime in an easy chair, when its mortality
    is a distant notion and time is a warming medium rather than
    an acrid solvent. This is the old regime of Charles Loyseau, who
    wrote nearly two centuries before the French Revolution that the
    nobility has no “beginning” and thus no end. It “exists time out of
    mind,” without consciousness or awareness of the passage of history.
    And it is in that sense that I refer to a distinction between a true conservative and a false conservative. The conservative in concept is dramatically different from the actual people that have historically been called conservatives, and yet there have been real people like the conceptual conservative, but they are generally not recognized as conservatives, or are considered weak/obsolete/inferiored conservatives (again, those complacent old regime folks come closer to the conceptual conservative than the firey ideologues do). It is entirely up to which you deem the true one and which you deem the false one, but the distinction between them is patent.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #16
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    no, he is saying that conservatism is a real historically identifiable strain, that it has X, Y and Z qualities, and that he will analyze it, and that it is different to the stereotype.

    you can agree or disagree but that is what he is saying.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If it can be said I'm having difficulty, then I am having difficulty with all of the political groups terms. Define for me a conservative, a reactionary, and a right-winger. Nothing that is said about them being separate can make any sense until they are given discrete definitions.
    I thought that was what you meant but I couldnt understand why you where saying it when my post was in part a statement of that fact and an attempt to provide descriptions.

    Did you read it?

  8. #18
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I thought that was what you meant but I couldnt understand why you where saying it when my post was in part a statement of that fact and an attempt to provide descriptions.

    Did you read it?
    I've read all your posts in this thread. Post #6 seems to be the closest to a defining of these categories, but it seems to me to do more to either: 1) classify particular individuals (like Burke) or 2) say what certain political types are not. But I did not find anything that seemed to me to describe what these political types are, at least in a manner that was clear to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To be honest I like the sorts of sociological examination of political ideology which transcend left and right wing in a formal sense. It could be my thinking function and analytical interests.
    You can divide politics down as meaning dimensions as there are subjects to disagree on. The trick with categorization is that it is inherently multidimensional, that is, leftism is a collection of specific standings on various dimensions, and so rightism. The broader the collection becomes, the less likely you are to find a person that is a complete representative of a category. Since this is generally true, I do not have a problem with left vs. right any more than I do with any other system of opposing categories. It can potentially be interesting to consider any permutation that people come up with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think the point of declasse individuals having a tangible sense of grievance perhaps greater than that of the under privileged is a good one, I definitely believe this is the case, they are also more likely to have a greater impact when mobilised. Marx made this distinction between proletariat and lumpen proletariat and others have made it since.

    A lot of the genuinely excluded, marginalised and under privileged are accustomed to their situation, they dont fight in a head on mutually assured destruction sort of way when oppressed or treated unjustly, instead its more often that a sort of passive aggressive or indirect protest. As a result they are natures survivors, can exist under any sort of regime, although they arent likely to effect regime change or revolution.
    But a good chunk of history's great upheavals did come more from below than above, so to speak. However it is true that those most downtrodden people are not likely to revolt. Uprisings are actually more likely to come from what one could consider the second-worst class, or with help from the middle-class. Furthermore, those who have stagnated in poverty don't revolt often, but those who have recently experienced an upward trend, even a small one, revolt relatively often. The taste of something better and the expectation that more will come is what stokes revolution.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

Similar Threads

  1. The Banned and The Damned
    By Haight in forum Official Decrees
    Replies: 331
    Last Post: 11-30-2017, 07:12 PM
  2. Political conservatism, in-group loyalty, and moral integrity of the individual
    By SolitaryWalker in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 01-30-2013, 11:30 AM
  3. Kicking and screaming
    By rivercrow in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 04-25-2007, 10:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO