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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Now, I agreed with your construction from a week or two ago that not wanting to live (or was it wanting to die? ) is not the same as wanting to kill yourself -- the difference there is clear and obvious -- but I was wondering if you could elaborate on the difference between not wanting to live not being the same as wanting to die.

    I must say, "live" and "die" seem to be a pair of words that are indeed opposites.

    To be alive is to not be dead, and to be dead is to not be alive.

    How then can your above construction make sense?

    *hoping this doesn't derail the thread, although it does seem to be germane...*
    To "Wish you were never alive" would make dying irrelevant.

    Of course, there's always the option of joining the undead zombie horde... !

    Does anyone here need hugs?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    1) No.

    2) Brilliant counterpoint.
    Shucks. Not quite as brilliant as proposing that "Nihilism is dead because it doesn't work", but yeah, I do my best.

    Life can be both intrinsically meaningless and imbued with meaning at the same time.
    Not unlike many of the posts in this thread.

    If no one can *prove* its essential meaninglessness, neither can anyone prove it has meaning.

    Stalemate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post


    It reads a bit INTJ to me...

    ***
    I thought the same thing from just skimming his chapter titles, and reading the first few paragraphs. I thought, "NT" and I thought, "Ni. Definitely Ni."

    It makes me associate with John Kennedy Toole a bit. Ne, sorry.

  4. #84
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And whereas no one thinks of validating the deluded thoughts of schizophrenics
    I posted a link about a week ago to an interesting article on the concept of 'cognitive liberty', but perhaps you missed it.

    I've never been clinically depressed either. so I am open to the possibility that I might think differently about depression if I had been treated of such and therefore had a personal basis for comparison.

    But I still ask you this - what if the drugs (or therapy) for depression didn't work for a specific individual? What does that mean exactly?

    I was going to include a question about a case where a schizophrenic committed suicide as his medication did not control his symptoms and he couldn't handle it anymore, are his emotional delusions resulting in his suicide real in that case? But I think that question is somewhat of a red herring right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    Maybe someone already mentioned this, but my only thoughts about it are... Even if he sounds a bit deranged in the writings, at least he thought about it for a long time. You don't write a 1,900 page suicide note because you're having a 'rough patch'. He took a long time to think good and hard about suicide.

    In some twisted way I find that more commendable than someone who does in on a whim. Not saying I condone it in any way. Just find it 'less terrible' I suppose.
    Suicide can be a rational act.

    People who kill themselves are assuredly unhappy, but I wouldn't always conclude that they are insane. Actually, death is the rational end to suffering in some cases.

    I'm really interested in this, but honestly don't know if I could get through it.

  6. #86
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    Can someone let me know if he ever attempts to justify nihilism? I'm not spending another 1850 pages of my reading time on this.

    I'd immediately say that meaning, importance, purpose and significance are all emotional terms. Non-emotional definitions of those terms are entirely arbitrary and usually based on emotions anyway. Since emotions exist, meaning exists.

    It's the common existentialist response. I searched for existential (to get both ist and ism) and similar terms and found no results other than things about Zionism and Jews, a bit about Jesus, something about Nazis, and a brief mention of Normans and Saxons.

    I only skimmed it, but I did see a lot there about Jews and Nazis. I won't jump to conclusions, though I saw a lot of sympathy for the Nazis, and not much for the Jews.

  7. #87
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Errrm....I thought he was Jewish...
    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I'd immediately say that meaning, importance, purpose and significance are all emotional terms. Non-emotional definitions of those terms are entirely arbitrary and usually based on emotions anyway. Since emotions exist, meaning exists.
    That's nonsense. Just because people have emotional responses to those terms, doesn't make them "emotional terms". Importance, purpose, significance - these can all be objectively defined. Meaning cannot. It does not respond to logic, therefore using logic against it is futile (which is what you're trying to do here).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Errrm....I thought he was Jewish...
    I still got the impression of more sympathy for the Nazis than the Jews. I've read about 60 out of 1900 pages.

    It's not surprising though, if true, considering the Nazis were bigger fans of death than the Jews on average. In his words, the Nazis are less "prejudiced towards death" and follow "natural justice" more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    That's nonsense. Just because people have emotional responses to those terms, doesn't make them "emotional terms". Importance, purpose, significance - these can all be objectively defined. Meaning cannot. It does not respond to logic, therefore using logic against it is futile (which is what you're trying to do here).
    As I said, they can be objectively defined. You can define any term however you like. Those definitions are arbitrary though.

    If you are using a strict definition of emotion, I'd point out that I am not. Feelings, desires and states of minds are all going under my umbrella term, "emotions". In an MBTI sense all "expressions of value" would be the another term that goes under it.

    Take any non-emotion based definition of those terms. Not only are they almost always derived from emotions indirectly anyway ('importance' and 'priority' in a legal or business document expressing the emotions that created those laws or businesses in the first place), but they also create an arbitrary definition of nihilism that's going to vary wildly between individuals, just as objective definitions of those four terms vary.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    As I said, they can be objectively defined. You can define any term however you like. Those definitions are arbitrary though.

    If you are using a strict definition of emotion, I'd point out that I am not. Feelings, desires and states of minds are all going under my umbrella term, "emotions". In an MBTI sense all "expressions of value" would be the another term that goes under it.

    Take any non-emotion based definition of those terms. Not only are they almost always derived from emotions indirectly anyway ('importance' and 'priority' in a legal or business document expressing the emotions that created those laws or businesses in the first place), but they also create an arbitrary definition of nihilism that's going to vary wildly between individuals, just as objective definitions of those four terms vary.
    I disagree.

    "Importance" and "significance" relate to rank. They do not implicitly represent value judgements, e.g. "What are the most important/significant factors contributing to global warming?" "What is the evolutionary purpose of the peacock's tail?" Such things can be objectively determined (in theory). They do not rely on subjective impressions in the way that "meaning" does.

    Of course, you can dismiss this all as semantics, but not without dismissing your own argument, which is purely a semantic one.


    The thing that most people seem to forget is that the fact that Life is meaningless says nothing about its worth. Worth is always subjectively derived. Value is whatever someone is willing to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell Heisman
    If no values are inherently valuable, then life has no inherent value.
    True.
    If life has no inherent purpose, then its end could be directed towards its negation or death.
    Well it could be, but it could also be directed towards any number of other subjectively worthwhile or worthless endeavours. And there is no objective way of determining which path should be chosen, you've already admitted that.
    Death could be posited as the highest value.
    Non sequitur.

    Why does his obsessive logic not lead him to the conclusion that Death is at least as meaningless as Life? In fact, it must be more meaningless by virtue of the fact that one cannot even subjectively value one's own non-existence.

    There is a kind of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice at work here. Rather than admit to being defeated by the challenges and necessary pain of existence, he chooses to justify his own annihilation and that of others as the inevitable consequence of superior logic. And his arrogance prevents him from seeing the obvious flaws in that logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Honestly, I don't feel you have expressed your opinions on how you disagree with me. You say you disagree but you don't say on what grounds you disagree. That's what I've been trying to gain from this. I don't seek to change your opinions but to understand them and so far I do not have a clear sense of where you stand.
    I've had the same issues with N's posts in this and other threads. I've been curious as to understand the basis of his disagreement(s), but so far he's been unwilling to explain the details of his objections... which is bothersome.

    I figure if a point of view is worth holding, it's worth explaining... even if just to make sure that the logic is sound.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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