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  1. #61
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Thumbs down A Real Delusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    When people commit suicide, they are not merely beings who have gone against their programming.
    They hate to be told that clinical depression is an emotional delusion, but they don't mind being told that schizophrenia is a delusion of thought.

    I have often wondered about this. But the clinically depressed are affronted and tell me that their emotions are real, and how dare I say they are a delusion.

    And of course their emotions are real - they are a real delusion.

  2. #62
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I've struggled with depression on and off my entire life, Victor. I don't think you're entirely off base here. Of course I only have access to my own experiences, but I do think that depression creates a fog that makes it hard to see and connect with joy. It can be tempting to personalize that fog and want to get rid of it. I can see how some depressed people who have been further down the rabbit hole than I have, might see no way to vanquish the fog than to kill themselves.

    Maybe I've misunderstood the back and forth between you and Architectonic though.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #63
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I've struggled with depression on and off my entire life, Victor. I don't think you're entirely off base here. Of course I only have access to my own experiences, but I do think that depression creates a fog that makes it hard to see and connect with joy. It can be tempting to personalize that fog and want to get rid of it. I can see how some depressed people who have been further down the rabbit hole than I have, might see no way to vanquish the fog than to kill themselves.

    Maybe I've misunderstood the back and forth between you and Architectonic though.
    Unlike you, I have had no personal experience of clinical depression. I am entirely dependent on the DSM IV which tells me that clinical depression is accompanied by delusions.

    What I have noticed is that those with diagnosed clinical depression do not have delusions of thought, as do the schizophrenic, so I can only conclude that the clinically depressed have delusions of emotion.

    I also notice the clinically depressed hate being told they are emotionally deluded, it is as if their emotions are being invalidated. And of course, they are.

    So we have the interesting situation where the clinically depressed want their deluded emotions validated.

    This is a very powerful demand. And whereas no one thinks of validating the deluded thoughts of schizophrenics, we seem to find it impossible not to validate the deluded emotions of the clinically depressed.

    Unfortunately this leads to lethal outcomes, as we see with Mitchell Heisman.

  4. #64
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Of course you did not say that. Why should it not be taken at its purest form?
    No snark please. If you can quote me where I said nihilism cannot be taken seriously then I will give you that much but I'd rather be quoted fairly.

    It should not be taken at its purest form as a personal philosophy because it has no other end that self-destruction. It doesn't seek to answer any questions about our existence. Instead, it jumps to a conclusion that life is inherently meaningless without proving or providing quantifiable reasons why it is so. Also, to prove nihilism correct would be to disprove the philosophical ideas that oppose nihilism and questions such as why some people experience joy and happiness. Life has meaning for them. Why? Nihilism has no answer for those questions. Which is why it shouldn't be taken in it's purest form.

    Nihilism has been useful as a philosophical stepping stone to other schools of thought that have taken the best from it and built upon it. Existentialism, for instance, has traces of nihilism in it and I'm sure other schools of thought have taken the best from existentialism and so on and so forth.

    Ultimately, we are trying to find answers to the unanswerable. But to treat any "ism" as fact is unwise. It breeds fanatical devotion. Or worse, intolerance to any new information or different but potentially better solutions to the same questions. This is where Heisman erred and why the credibility of his manifesto suffered. He assumed.

    I think it is pretty obvious. To switch tracks is to leave the ordinary, natural way of living, that is, life itself - by embarking on nihilism. Life is the pointless journey, because it has no purpose yet is full of arduous misery. Why take the pain if it is unnecessary and can be avoided? The note, finally, is the chronicle of someone who departs from said ordinary way, to be used however one pleases: some might follow in the steps of that person, being prepared what to expect if they do; some might learn which thoughts and insights to eschew.

    A question for you: Do you believe life is arduous misery?
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  5. #65
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    No snark please. If you can quote me where I said nihilism cannot be taken seriously then I will give you that much but I'd rather be quoted fairly.
    If you had said that it cannot be taken seriously, it would have been quite absurd to say: "You seem to think that ..."

    I think our differing opinions have to do with differing understandings of what nihilism actually is. I disagree with you on two major (and some unnamed minor) points: first, that nihilism does not seek to answer any questions about our existence, and second, that it has no other end than self-destruction. I will not bother to contradict the rest of your post, for that would lead into an endless debate.

    If you feel your points deserve a more comprehensive treatment, let me know: then I will, for your pleasure, take part in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    A question for you: Do you believe life is arduous misery?
    Yes.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I disagree with you on two major (and some unnamed minor) points: first, that nihilism does not seek to answer any questions about our existence, and second, that it has no other end than self-destruction.
    I agree that these points you've raised about MDP's critique seem problematic (to be honest, his/her critique sounded awful to me at the beginning), but he/she largely redeemed himself/herself as the critique went on, particularly here:

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Instead, it jumps to a conclusion that life is inherently meaningless without proving or providing quantifiable reasons why it is so.
    I've taken out the part about "quantifiable reasons", as that is totally irrelevant, but the rest of it is true as day.

    Nicodemus, I find it hard to believe that you actually believe that life can be definitively proven to be meaningless.

    It is as idiotic an endeavor as attempting to prove that God exists.

  7. #67
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    The darkness of his views has been too much for his friends and family, many of whom have yet to read his suicide note.

    “It makes me sad and angry that he didn’t care for any facet of life other than the book,’’ Barnes said.

    As his sister, Laurel Heisman, spent last week sifting through what remains of his things — a poster in German, a well-made bed, piles of books in a small room shrouded with a dark curtain — she said she received a separate, posthumous note from him asking that she preserve a website he created to publish his book, a burden she has agreed to bear.

    “I love you,’’ he wrote to her.

    She wishes she could have made him see more of the beauty of life, and how we create our own value and give our own meaning to life. She might have taken him up a mountain or held him more closely.

    “He just told us the safe things, because he knew we would have tried to stop him,’’ she said. “It’s really hard. It’s not like someone who was really depressed because they lost a lover. His whole ideology was wrapped in this concept of nihilism. I wish we could have made him see things differently.’
    Wow. Surrounded by idiots. No wonder he killed himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Every one who commits suicide is nihilistic to some degree whether they know that philosophy or not. I mean. They are the ultimate nihilists. This is where I said we are aware of the limitations of nihilism because without balance from other forms of thought nihilism self-destructs upon itself. It's not a question of is nihilism bad or good but nihilism in a pure form does not work.
    Define "work" in nihilistic terms.
    Your argument makes no sense.
    At least Heisman was consistent. There's something to be said for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Nicodemus, I find it hard to believe that you actually believe that life can be definitively proven or demonstrated to be meaningless.
    Please define 'meaningful'.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Please define 'meaningful'.
    Having meaning.

  10. #70
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Fuck. I might actually be INTJ.
    That alone is good enough reason to kill oneself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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