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  1. #201
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    And I already thought this thread were dead.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Everything except theological literature gets that chance. Maybe you can direct me to a passage that teaches the quintessence of 'the frame'?
    I'd recommend starting with Book 1.

    You could also check out this video:

    [YOUTUBE="PAJPdenxVlw"][/YOUTUBE]

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Not only is that not being ignored, it's been stated repeatedly. This is the nature of moral relativism.
    Morgan, would you say that all morals are relative?

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Not only is that not being ignored, it's been stated repeatedly. This is the nature of moral relativism.
    You are ignoring it. "X is 20 degrees centigrade" is a fact, a relative fact, but it is inherently true or inherently false in some sense. Trying to get from a relative fact to nihilism of that fact cannot be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    He doesn't value them.
    Exactly. His argument is based on his own arbitrary values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    He also recognises that moral relativism leads inexorably to moral nihilism. Something which seems to have escaped your notice.
    Moral nihilism is not equivalent to moral relativism. Hopefully it's obvious if I point out that Velocity exists, despite being relative. Denying that it exists, and saying it relatively exists are never equivalent. Again though, you might just ignore relativism and equate it to nihilism yet again.

    I would move on to talking about moral relativism, but it's kind of besides the point at the moment.

  5. #205
    Ginkgo
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    The problem I have with moral relativism is that it's paradoxical. It defines an essential, overarching, and absolute part of morality, yet claims that all morals are unique and relative to the individual and culture. Of course, if all morals were unique, we would not call all of them morals.

    For some non sequential reason, moral relativists fall into a fatalistic state of moral nihilism. "Because morals vary... there must be no morals!", they say. Totally illogical, since the premise posits the existence of morals and the conclusion somehow arrives at the non-existence of them.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    And I already thought this thread were dead.
    Don't you think that about everything?

  7. #207
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    No.

  8. #208
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    You are ignoring it. "X is 20 degrees centigrade" is a fact, a relative fact, but it is inherently true or inherently false in some sense. Trying to get from a relative fact to nihilism of that fact cannot be done.
    I hate this fucking thread and I don't know why I'm resurrecting it.

    "X is 20 degrees centigrade" is not a "relative fact" (wth is a relative fact?). It's a falsifiable statement.
    Don't you know the difference between statements that are falsifiable and ones that are not? Because this conversation can't go anywhere unless you accept that there is such a distinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I hate this fucking thread and I don't know why I'm resurrecting it.

    "X is 20 degrees centigrade" is not a "relative fact" (wth is a relative fact?). It's a falsifiable statement.
    Don't you know the difference between statements that are falsifiable and ones that are not? Because this conversation can't go anywhere unless you accept that there is such a distinction.
    Facts are absolute. Statements like that are falsifiable. However, the way they are conveyed is relative. Maybe that's what he meant, but I'm not sure. Or perhaps he meant that some absolute facts are discarded/adopted variously and in a relative way.

  10. #210
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Facts are absolute. Statements like that are falsifiable. However, the way they are conveyed is relative. Maybe that's what he meant, but I'm not sure. Or perhaps he meant that some absolute facts are discarded/adopted variously and in a relative way.
    What?
    Facts are falsifiable. Look it up. And probably best not to speak for someone else. That's falsifiable too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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