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  1. #151
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If this is still about the question whether or not values are inherently valuable, here is my take:

    The value is that which is supposed to be the inherent. In that sense, values are necessarily valuable, because those words mean the same, they just have different grammatical forms. But that which is found to have value is not necessarily valuable; in fact, it is not valuable unless one, subjectively, believes it to be.
    Give up, they don't get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I've already noted that, waaaay back. Keep up, marm.

    I totally understand what they are saying. It's just that they're wrong.

    Jeez. Does no one understand the meaning of the word "inherent"?
    If family were inherently valuable the view "avoid at all costs" would be impossible. Thanks for helping to prove my point.
    Oh I'm sorry. "Family is bad" doesn't qualify as a value? Wouldn't that be assigning it a negative value?

  3. #153
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    If Heisman could read this thread he'd kill himself again.



  4. #154
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Give up, they don't get it.
    I have not read much of the discussion, actually very little. If you agree with me, you are right and can rest now. They have been told the truth. The deed is done.

    How was your day?

  5. #155
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    Also, there are philosophical viewpoints which uphold the idea of intrinsic value, and they aren't all religious or spiritual viewpoints, either.


    Just because someone doesn't agree with your world view doesn't make them wrong, Morgan.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Oh I'm sorry. "Family is bad" doesn't qualify as a value? Wouldn't that be assigning it a negative value?
    O, value-able. Well, everything is value-able.

  7. #157
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Also, there are philosophical viewpoints which uphold the idea of intrinsic value, and they aren't all religious or spiritual viewpoints, either.
    Moral realists have not a single good argument to support their nonsense.

  8. #158
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I have not read much of the discussion, actually very little. If you agree with me, you are right and can rest now. They have been told the truth. The deed is done.

    How was your day?
    Valuable.

    Apparently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #159
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    At first I thought it was just denial that value was a mental object like pain is. However, after seeing the response to the pain argument, I'm starting to think it's more a delusional denial that anything mental exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Value cannot be both intrinsic and extrinsic.
    So you keep claiming, which makes me doubt you know what those words mean. Same with "objective" and "subjective". Same with "arbitrary" and "necessary".

    A triangle has no intrinsic length. A metre does. Length is both extrinsic and intrinsic. The colour red exists in subjects, the colour red is a thing in itself (an object). Red is both subjective and objective. It is necessary that 1+1=2, it is not necessary that 1+x=2. 2 is both necessary and arbitrary. Nothing can be entirely subjective, nothing can be entirely extrinsic and nothing can be entirely arbitrary.

    I agree that something can be entirely necessary, objective and/or intrinsic, as "1+1=2" is an example of, but the other way around makes no sense.

    To link back to the original statement:-

    Intrinsic: To be part of the very nature of something.

    So "three sides" is intrinsic to a "triangle" and "wood" is intrinsic to the "metal box that contains wood within it".

    "The Universe as it is now": Actually has a few definitions, but they all contain humans within them.

    "Humans as they are now": Again, has a few definitions. The key thing being that they necessarily value things.

    Humans have value, not in the sense of being valuable to something else, but in the same sense Humans have pain. Pain and value are objects that exist within humans as they are now, intrinsic to them.

    So the Universe as it is now, has intrinsic value and intrinsic pain. Pain and Value are intrinsic to the Universe as it is now.

    Yes a future or possible Universe could loose intrinsic value and intrinsic pain, but that's not what Heisman was talking about. He was describing it as it is now.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    If there is an argument for objective subjectivity, no one in this thread has made it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I believe I've heard it before as one's value judgments being objectively subjective (or subjectively objective): i.e., if one finds a hamburger delicious, it is objectively true that one finds it subjectively delicious... hence, it is not arbitrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Yea that's what this reminds me of. The "anything subjective is necessarily objective as well" argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Another way of stating it is that certain values are inherently true to you.

    Some people seem to have difficulty realizing that we are part of the objective universe.
    Morgan, what you are saying is clear as day.

    What you don't realize is that the above argument reframes the issue, showing your argument to be a frame based on a clear object/subject divide, which is not the only way to look at things, and is thus limited.

    If you were to reframe the matter to this point of view, you would see that it is objectively true that to a particular part of the objective universe (the part that, if you were to be framing the issue from the point of view of a clear object/subject divide [the frame you've been working from], you would call the subject), that hamburger is objectively and inherently delicious.

    What you have shown thus far is that you are unwilling to reframe the issue in this way, and thus will not accept the above argument.

    The fact of the matter is that this frame is at least as sound (and possibly more) as the frame from which you are coming.

    The frame from which you are coming -- that of a clear object/subject divide -- is an extremely common one, and it's one that we use all the time, but that doesn't mean it's anything but a useful way to frame our understanding and construct our grammar.

    A frame which does away with the object/subject divide and posits all beings as objects is just as, if not more, accurate as the frame that you are using.

    Through this frame, it's perfectly sound to say that an object is inherently delicious to a certain part of the objective universe (i.e., any part of the universe that finds it delicious).

    When the understanding gained from using this frame is translated into the common grammar of the frame that starts from a clear object/subject divide, you get something like this: "it is inherently true to x (the "subject") that y (the hamburger) is z (delicious)."

    From the frame from which you are viewing the matter, you will merely say, "that's just a subjective valuation".

    But your response would merely be a result of your starting a priori from a frame that puts precedence on the object/subject divide.

    If you were to come from the frame that doesn't utilize the object/subject divide, but looks at all things merely as objects, then you would say, "a part of the universe (x) finds y to be z".

    But, as you've shown:

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I'm not buying your bullshit. Sell it to someone else.
    ...you're not willing to look at the issue from this second frame, as you're committed to the frame of the object/subject divide and the conclusion you've reached using this frame:

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    "If no values are inherently valuable, then life has no inherent value."

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