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  1. #141
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The problem is, the more you say and the more controversial it is, the more you will have to defend it. Defending is exhausting and usually profitless.
    I agree which is why I don't often post to a lot of NT thread topics. Even those that interest me.

    I don't wish to debate the rightness or wrongness of views. To each their own. I'd much rather state my opinion, hear the other side, clarify any points and call it a day. I didn't feel as though I heard your side. Anyway. I appreciate you stating more clearly you thoughts although you didn't even need to respond to any of my posts to do so. I'm not changing my mind You're not changing yours, you know? My curiosity is more outside the context of what I specifically wrote. The question I most want to know is:

    What is your opinion of Heisman?

    I'm not gonna try and tear you apart. I'm genuinely curious.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  2. #142
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    If it had no value, then it would not be a value in the first place.

    Either you, or someone else had to have given it value before it became a value. Before it became a value, it was vaguely a 'thing'.
    Wow. No.

    It isn’t a value in the first place! It’s a statement. It remains a statement irrespective of the value that you as an individual assign.
    E.g. "Eugenics is good" is a value.
    There is no logic that can prove this statement to be true or false. It can never be objectively true. It is epistemologically subjective. That’s why we call it a "value" and not a "truth".

    This is the process that happens:

    1. You evaluate a statement (e.g. eugenics is good)
    2. You decide that statement is false (for you) based on how consistent it is with your other subjective value statements (e.g. "human life is sacred", "all men are created equal", "nature is good")
    3. "Eugenics is bad" becomes a value (for you)

    That’s a consistent, yet entirely arbitrary process. You didn’t arrive a new truth. You didn’t discover a pre-existing "inherently valuable" value. You just adopted or created, your own.

    Since you could just as easily have determined that "Eugenics is good", and since some do, there is no way to determine which value has *inherent* value; in fact, neither do.


    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    (e.g. Pain is inherently painful. It's arbitrarily linked to other things, like being stabbed, but not to pain itself. Anyone who experiences pain finds it painful, anyone who experiences value finds it valuable. Pain /= painful. One does not find other's pain painful, or other's values valuable, because one hasn't actually found their pain or value, to do so you'd need to be the other person, otherwise it is always one's own pain/value, and not the other's.)
    Anyone who experiences this thread finds it painful. Does that make "painful" a property of the thread? No. (Or yes, depending on your point of view).

    You guys really don’t distinguish between subject and object, eh?

    It is objectively true that people have values (emotions, meaning, pain, qualia etc, etc) in relation to objects.

    Objects do not have value without a valuer (the subject).
    Therefore, objects do not have inherent value.
    Values do not have value without a valuer (the subject).
    Therefore, values do not have inherent value.

    And we’re back to...
    "If no values are inherently valuable, then life has no inherent value."
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Wow. No.

    It isn’t a value in the first place! It’s a statement. It remains a statement irrespective of the value that you as an individual assign.
    E.g. "Eugenics is good" is a value.
    There is no logic that can prove this statement to be true or false. It can never be objectively true. It is epistemologically subjective. That’s why we call it a "value" and not a "truth".
    Wow indeed.

    Heisman made the statement "No values are inherently valuable". That's what I'm disagreeing with. If he was intending to make it epistemological, subjective, and personal, he should have said, "I don't find the things that others find valuable to be valuable". But instead, he attempted to state an impersonal, logical conclusion by not mentioning his own evaluation.

    If objects have no inherent value, but values are subjective, then it isn't necessary that values have no inherent value.

    1. You evaluate a statement (e.g. eugenics is good)
    2. You decide that statement is false (for you) based on how consistent it is with your other subjective value statements (e.g. "human life is sacred", "all men are created equal", "nature is good")
    3. "Eugenics is bad" becomes a value (for you)

    That’s a consistent, yet entirely arbitrary process. You didn’t arrive a new truth. You didn’t discover a pre-existing "inherently valuable" value. You just adopted or created, your own.

    Since you could just as easily have determined that "Eugenics is good", and since some do, there is no way to determine which value has *inherent* value; in fact, neither do.
    I think both erm and I understand this process.

    Just because you don't find something valuable doesn't mean that it has no inherit value. You aren't the center of the universe or the only one who values things.

    Objects do not have value without a valuer (the subject).
    Therefore, objects do not have inherent value.
    Values do not have value without a valuer (the subject).
    Therefore, values do not have inherent value.
    Values aren't objects, but you're treating them as though they are. Values are given to objects. Values are valuable. Pain is painful. Sounds are audible.

    The family is valuable, but not all people value the family. It is not valued by all. Still, they are able to value it, hence "it is valuable".

  4. #144
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Wow indeed.

    Heisman made the statement "No values are inherently valuable". That's what I'm disagreeing with. If he was intending to make it epistemological, subjective, and personal, he should have said, "I don't find the things that others find valuable to be valuable". But instead, he attempted to state an impersonal, logical conclusion by not mentioning his own evaluation.
    Values are epistemologically subjective. Heisman's argument is not. It's a metaphysical one, not an epistemological one. An enquiry into the nature of "value", not an assertion of a value.
    If objects have no inherent value, but values are subjective, then it isn't necessary that values have no inherent value.
    Yes, it is necessarily true that that is the case. One cannot believe both that values are subjective and that they have inherent value. Those are contradictory views. Value cannot be both intrinsic and extrinsic. Pick one!

    Just because you don't find something valuable doesn't mean that it has no inherit value. You aren't the center of the universe or the only one who values things.
    And just because you do find something valueable, doesn't mean this it HAS inherent value.
    It's because I realise that I'm not the centre of the universe that I recognise the truth of subjectivity.
    Values aren't objects, but you're treating them as though they are. Values are given to objects. Values are valuable. Pain is painful. Sounds are audible.
    I've already proven that values aren't objects a couple of posts back. It is you/erm that are claiming they have objective existence by asserting that they have inherent worth.

    Your argument is completely incoherent. If there is an argument for objective subjectivity, no one in this thread has made it.

    In any event, your objection to the premise is moot, since you still arrive at the same conclusion.
    I agree with the premise, but find the ultimate conclusion unsound.

    It's weird how people will cling to absurdities in order to pretend that their existence matters. You're incapable of comprehending something that would undermine your worldview. Most people are, and maybe that's a good thing - it didn't do much for Heisman, after all. So believe whatever you need to believe to get you through the day. Far be it from me to destroy your delusions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #145
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    What is your opinion of Heisman?
    In what way?

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Ridiculous and infantile.
    It's because I realise that I'm not the centre of the universe that I recognise the essential meaninglessness of existence. In any event, your objection to the premise is moot, since you still arrive at the same conclusion.
    I agree with the premise, but find the ultimate conclusion unsound.
    It's weird how people will cling to absurdities in order to pretend that they matter. You're incapable of comprehending something that would undermine your worldview. Most people are, and maybe that's a good thing - it didn't do much for Heisman, after all. So believe whatever you need to believe to get you through the day. Far be it from me to destroy your delusions.
    Actually, I think Tater is right...there's nothing infantile about what he's saying. I think the concept of family was a particularly strong example to support the argument he's making.

  7. #147
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Actually, I think Tater is right...there's nothing infantile about what he's saying. I think the concept of family was a particularly strong example to support the argument he's making.
    I've changed my post since you quoted it.

    I think the family example is particularly weak. But feel free to explain why you don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I've changed my post since you quoted it.

    I think the family example is particularly weak. But feel free to explain why you don't.

    Well what's utterly hilarious is that you keep missing Tater and Erm's point. It's like you willfully don't want to understand what they're saying. It's kind of beyond me that the "pain is painful" explanation didn't turn on a light bulb for you.

    I'm going to help you out: THIS HAS BECOME A SEMANTICS ISSUE.

    But as for the family example...I thought it was still a particularly good example for something that is inherently valuable because through sheer force of biology humans attach some value to family, even if those values subjectively vary from "sacred" to "avoid at all costs."

  9. #149
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    If this is still about the question whether or not values are inherently valuable, here is my take:

    The value is that which is supposed to be the inherent. In that sense, values are necessarily valuable, because those words mean the same, they just have different grammatical forms. But that which is found to have value is not necessarily valuable; in fact, it is not valuable unless one, subjectively, believes it to be.

  10. #150
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well what's utterly hilarious is that you keep missing Tater and Erm's point. It's like you willfully don't want to understand what they're saying. It's kind of beyond me that the "pain is painful" explanation didn't turn on a light bulb for you.

    I'm going to help you out: THIS HAS BECOME A SEMANTICS ISSUE.
    I've already noted that, waaaay back. Keep up, marm.

    I totally understand what they are saying. It's just that they're wrong.
    But as for the family example...I thought it was still a particularly good example for something that is inherently valuable because through sheer force of biology humans attach some value to family, even if those values subjectively vary from "sacred" to "avoid at all costs."
    Jeez. Does no one understand the meaning of the word "inherent"?
    If family were inherently valuable the view "avoid at all costs" would be impossible. Thanks for helping to prove my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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