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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Why is this so hard to understand?
    Right back at you.

    Valuing your dog is arbitrary. Valuing one of your values is not.

    Nowhere in existence does something not value its own values. It's logically impossible, incoherent, contradictory, a paradox etc.

    Values themselves have value. You cannot possess one and not find it valuable, as by definition it would not be a value.

  2. #112
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Right back at you.

    Valuing your dog is arbitrary. Valuing one of your values is not.
    You're INFP, right?
    Nowhere in existence does something not value its own values. It's logically impossible, incoherent, contradictory, a paradox etc.
    You're tying yourself in knots with tautologies.

    Just because one values one's values, does not make one's values inherently valuable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Valuing your dog is arbitrary. Valuing one of your values is not.

    Nowhere in existence does something not value its own values. It's logically impossible, incoherent, contradictory, a paradox etc.

    Values themselves have value. You cannot possess one and not find it valuable, as by definition it would not be a value.
    I find this an interesting and worthwhile line of argumentation, actually.

    I believe I've heard it before as one's value judgments being objectively subjective (or subjectively objective): i.e., if one finds a hamburger delicious, it is objectively true that one finds it subjectively delicious... hence, it is not arbitrary.

  4. #114
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post

    Valuing your dog is arbitrary. Valuing one of your values is not.

    Nowhere in existence does something not value its own values. It's logically impossible, incoherent, contradictory, a paradox etc.
    Hmm, I agree.

    So, are you saying that *a* value is arbitrary, (which I actually disagree with, I happen to believe that we hold onto values for non-arbitrary reasons, for example, my valuing my dog benefits us both, hell I cannot even fully decipher the ripples of goodness that my valuing my dog has, I love him, he loves me, and this love brings me warmth, and in a very tiny way gives me a sense of meaning, making him feel good makes me feel good, alas he is a grumpy thing, an ornery cat in a dog suit, but he's soft, alive, and dependent on me, in a way, and yeah perhaps it's small he gives my life some kind of purpose, a daily reminder of how AWESOME life *can* be, i.e. how cool social mammals are, he makes me think of empathy, of mirror neurons, of the importance of Love and Family, yep, he does)

    SO, is this value arbitrary?

    I don't think so, it actual makes sense, mankind's affinity for dogs, it does.



    Grrr, lost my train of thought.


    Oh yeah, there usually is some reason, dare I say even a biological imperative, behind our values, kinda makes it seem cut and dry, but our values lead us to be both cooperative as a system, and as a species.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    You're INFP, right?
    Haha, okay okay. I don't know how to express it any further, so I'll stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I believe I've heard it before as one's value judgments being objectively subjective: i.e., if one finds a hamburger delicious, it is objectively true that one finds it subjectively delicious... hence, it is not arbitrary.
    Yea that's what this reminds me of. The "anything subjective is necessarily objective as well" argument.

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    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I am an agnostic, but I do not believe, nor have I ever believed in a monotheistic Abrahamic God up in the mighty sky, but as a human I cannot deny the fact that believing in something greater than oneself is somehow biologically imprinted within us, allegedly within the brain there is an area that scientists call the "God Spot", and when stimulated/activated people describe having "divine" moments of sentience, now, I have had these so called divine moments of sentience, where I feel one with the infinite harmony of the living, breathing universe, but I do not believe in a God, but I, although a humanistic existentialist, am DISGUSTED by solipsists and sociopaths, these are rotten eggs and are, in my opinion, more or less vile, worthless, deleteriously selfish beings.

    ^My point is, we are a OBJECTIVELY a social species, and I surmise that many of our inherent/intrinsic values come from and fortify this fact.

    Hmm, I think I'm onto something here.

    Wish there were some geneticists, evolutionary psychologists, or ethologists up in this thread.

    I wonder what E.O. Wilson would say....

    /end rant
    `
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I believe I've heard it before as one's value judgments being objectively subjective (or subjectively objective): i.e., if one finds a hamburger delicious, it is objectively true that one finds it subjectively delicious... hence, it is not arbitrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Yea that's what this reminds me of. The "anything subjective is necessarily objective as well" argument.
    Another way of stating it is that certain values are inherently true to you.

    Some people seem to have difficulty realizing that we are part of the objective universe.

    And then they seem to blame the fact that you do understand this on your being an F-type...

  8. #118
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Another way of stating it is that certain values are inherently true to you.

    Some people seem to have difficulty realizing that we are a part of the objective universe.

    And then they seem to blame the fact that you do understand this on your being an F-type...


    Truth!
    `
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

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  9. #119
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    I, although a humanistic existentialist, am DISGUSTED by solipsists and sociopaths, these are rotten eggs and are, in my opinion, more or less vile, worthless, deleteriously selfish beings.
    Excuse me?

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Excuse me?
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!


    Say it isn't so, you are a solipsist?

    That gives you reign to do anything to anyone, and granted, even though it is possible for anyone to force their will onto others, I, for one, am morally against it.

    Let me filter my thoughts....

    I can kill myself, but I would hope to not be *willfully* killed by another just to satisfy some sadistic ends to their means.

    I believe that all transactions between adults should be consensual, or voluntary.

    I do not want to be raped, or brutalized, and guess what, I will not rape or brutalize you or anyone else, either.

    You have full jurisdiction over your *self*, stay away from me, and my life, unless my life is directly putting your life in danger.

    Gah, a can of intellectual worm holes you opened.

    Grrrr.

    So, you a solipsist?

    You wouldn't be the first INTJ solipsist I've known/heard of...

    interesting...
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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