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Thread: Consideration

  1. #11
    Oberon
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    But look on the up side... you can get the best curry in Manchester...

  2. #12
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay this is coming up in discussion more and more where I am and I'm interested in getting a wider sample of opinion and experience.

    Right now in Britain there is a shift towards the BNP. A political party who's motto of "Britain First" seems far too easily twisted to a racist set of policies. In fact I think of them as the British version of the KKK. A less active history (I think) and less overt but no less racist in their views.
    The thing is, is that I can see some of their views as correct and have recently found myself defending them to the more "liberal" thinkers (read people with the opposite bias) and attacking their extremes with those who support them.

    Now I'm not really interested in a fight over how racist or not racist certain points of view are. Such circular thinking has only ended up in the current stalemate and under such it seems the extremes are getting more support.

    What I am interested in is what level of such "racism" is a sensible guard.
    Sounds like a backdoor to full racist views? Well if you have no control on immigrants, assylum seekers and such then you may very well end up with large problems. Of course the market should hold up as there would be as sharp an increase in demand as there would be an influx of people so it should keep the job situation fairly stables (other factors supporting that is) and ther is no race, creed or colour of people that are lazy good for nothing lay abouts. We are all equal (ish).

    So at present there is this "agreement" in Europe that assylum seekers are supposed to stop in the first safe country, doesn't happen. Apparently the thinking is that places like France will send them back and so they will skip coutries and come to good old blighty cause we won't turn them away. Some see this as noble and others as foolish.

    There is a brilliant piece of propaganda work going on in Britain too where every immigrant who gets a shiny car and a new house is splashed across the news like the Queen had been assassinated but those cases where they live in squallar or are turned back seem to disappear in the news of Beckhams latest perfume choice.

    So whilst politicians either make a career on immigration and assylum seekers, most treat it like boils. Something you don't talk about unless you really have to and then you are awkward and speak in hushed tones and carefully chosen words.

    Anyhow before that gets all too embroiled in detail (yawn), an example. Possibly a contentious one but one I reckon gets to the underlying issues that people stomp around.

    Say you have a beautiful city centre. It has won awards for it's wonderful choice of structures and good use of green spaces. Now you have an increasing population who wish to have a Mosque built. The design they want is like white stone with a golden roof (okay so it's a stereotype but I'm not particularly knowledgable on Mosque designs). Now if this was a new lesiure centre you'd just tell them no (barring backhanders) but this is now a minority you are dealing with and it's religion. You may be told that in their country all Mosques have a traditional design and so it must be of this design. That's fine... as a starting point but what about 'this is not that country, this is not that style of city and you will make the design more in keeping with the surroundings or you will not get planning permission"?

    According to one person I argued this with such an approach is uncompromising and unfair as we should allow people to keep their traditions. To some extent I agree but also I see the impact of this. If all incoming traditions are allowed virtually unhindered then what happens to the present tradition? It is changed. What about the incoming tradition? Should that not flex? If so then by how much? Why do people seem to skim over such things?

    I did suggest, in a rather technical discussion about proportional representation, that it would be good if the BNP get representation in the Houses of Parliment. I'd reckon that many of the BNP votes are protest votes designed to highlight issues. If these people could see that having an effect then they may not feel the need to protest again. Also say you have a 3-4% presence of BNP in the government. In all the really important issues you've got 96-97% ther who are members of the more middle ground parties so the BNP will not be able to steam roller some racist law into effect as some panicing people think. Also on the contentious issues like say Mosque design, you will have some people who are seemingly not afraid to represent those who resent such new and foreign things sprouting in their city and who don't want them and be damned to being hospitable!

    Personally I think that the doormat of Britain needs to have 'Welcome' written in slightly smaller letters. If that means listening to those who'd rather it read 'Closed' then so be it. Better that than continue without ever facing the questions of who should you look after first and foremost and what degree of 'Me casa et su casa" we should employ. I'm sure that even the most liberal of people would object if I, upon visiting their home, set myself up an upside down cross and started to sacrifice a goat then and there no matter how neat I was about it!

    Perhaps it is a case of 'Not In My Back Yard' (aka NIMBY)?

    Regardless of what people think to such people who think that immigrants are a curse, they do exist and they do get a vote. To try and ignore such a proportion of the community seems folly. It's almost like we're engaged in some international popularity contest or something. We shouldn't ignore these people but neither should we become Jingoistic.

    Thoughts?

    (Oh and the thinking here may be patchy. I'm very tired. Please ask for clarification if certain sections make no sense. Ta.)

    [PS. Sorry for the long post Mom. Hope it was worth it ]
    I see a rhinoceros is running through the square.

  3. #13
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    We're having the exact same political problem in America.

    I don't have a problem with legal immigrants. America has long been the place where people have come for a better life. When I was a kid, I'm pretty sure there was a numerical limit on how many immigrants we would take in every year. I think this is wise and necessary in the management of any economy.


    I frankly think the illegals should be sent home, or get on the road to becoming legal and paying taxes like the rest of us.
    Another rhino jumps out of the woodwork.

  4. #14
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    posting after wildcat strikes fear into my heart since I know whatever I say will take more words and be simpler (in the unflattering sense of the word)!

    First of all, to INTJmom- a lot of illegal immigrants DO pay some forms of taxes to the US through thier paychecks and bosses- not to mention sales tax on every item that they purchase! I did some research on that a while back after I worked with a bunch of illegal immigrants in my last job and became curious!

    Secondly, if our country DID want to get rid of illegal immigrants we would have to come up with SOME labor force to replace them in all of the jobs that they work- most "Americans" are not willing to work the same jobs for the same wages- so the options seem to be either pay more to the workers, or keep illegal immigrants around. Since we don't seem all that apt to pay our workers any more than is needed to obtain workers, illegal immigrants remain essential to keep entire portions of our economy afloat.

    To the OP- that sounds eerily like V for Vendetta somehow to me We studied immigration policies and WHY they were in effect in a variety of countries around the world in one of my senior seminars a while back, and it seemed that a big problem was that some European countries were less willing to have thier populations become more heterogeneous in part, since most of them started out rather highly homogeneous, and that people were worried about having to share their social services with people who they felt wouldn't be paying sufficiently into them.

    This same issue arrises in the US with the desire of certain politicians and individuals to get rid of illegal immigrants- some wish to in order to preserve our "american culture" and others are worried about social services going to people who they don't feel have paid to receive them. We've always had a problem with cyclic xenophobic episodes in our history- first hating the Irish immigrants, then the Italians, then the Chinese, then Internment Camps for the Japanese immigrants and now the Latin American immigrants (with general exceptions made for anti-Castro Cubans). The funny thing is that our economy would not have functioned throughout history without these groups doing the unpleasant and low paid jobs (I would have included African Americans, but the issue of slavery put them into the category of forced, as opposed to willing, immigration).

    I don't know how much of an impact that illegal immigrants have on the workforce of Great Britain, but that would be interesting to know!

    Thanks for the interesting thread!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Secondly, if our country DID want to get rid of illegal immigrants we would have to come up with SOME labor force to replace them in all of the jobs that they work- most "Americans" are not willing to work the same jobs for the same wages- so the options seem to be either pay more to the workers, or keep illegal immigrants around. Since we don't seem all that apt to pay our workers any more than is needed to obtain workers, illegal immigrants remain essential to keep entire portions of our economy afloat.
    Actually, this does make a reason to push harder to remove illegal immigrants, people may not be that hot to pay higher wages, but if they want these jobs done, they will have to pay the higher wages anyway, which will provide extra income for some types of jobs that are lower on the income scale.

  6. #16
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    posting after wildcat strikes fear into my heart since I know whatever I say will take more words and be simpler (in the unflattering sense of the word)!

    First of all, to INTJmom- a lot of illegal immigrants DO pay some forms of taxes to the US through thier paychecks and bosses- not to mention sales tax on every item that they purchase! I did some research on that a while back after I worked with a bunch of illegal immigrants in my last job and became curious!

    Secondly, if our country DID want to get rid of illegal immigrants we would have to come up with SOME labor force to replace them in all of the jobs that they work- most "Americans" are not willing to work the same jobs for the same wages- so the options seem to be either pay more to the workers, or keep illegal immigrants around. Since we don't seem all that apt to pay our workers any more than is needed to obtain workers, illegal immigrants remain essential to keep entire portions of our economy afloat.

    To the OP- that sounds eerily like V for Vendetta somehow to me We studied immigration policies and WHY they were in effect in a variety of countries around the world in one of my senior seminars a while back, and it seemed that a big problem was that some European countries were less willing to have thier populations become more heterogeneous in part, since most of them started out rather highly homogeneous, and that people were worried about having to share their social services with people who they felt wouldn't be paying sufficiently into them.

    This same issue arrises in the US with the desire of certain politicians and individuals to get rid of illegal immigrants- some wish to in order to preserve our "american culture" and others are worried about social services going to people who they don't feel have paid to receive them. We've always had a problem with cyclic xenophobic episodes in our history- first hating the Irish immigrants, then the Italians, then the Chinese, then Internment Camps for the Japanese immigrants and now the Latin American immigrants (with general exceptions made for anti-Castro Cubans). The funny thing is that our economy would not have functioned throughout history without these groups doing the unpleasant and low paid jobs (I would have included African Americans, but the issue of slavery put them into the category of forced, as opposed to willing, immigration).

    I don't know how much of an impact that illegal immigrants have on the workforce of Great Britain, but that would be interesting to know!

    Thanks for the interesting thread!
    I say a very good post whatever! You have information and insight.
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    I am pleased you mentioned the Hoover Chinatown fiasco. And the treatment of the Japanese during the war.

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  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Okay let me combine a few responses here.

    INTJMom,
    reading that through again I realise I was repeating a lot of what you were saying but I was just underlining my agreement by echoing what you had said.

    Oberon,
    It is true that you can now get lots of various kinds of food and culture here. I still can't find a decent Italian that costs less than £50 a head though

    Wildcat,
    I realise that this may be a Rhino approach to things but the people who tend to espouse these ideas are Rhino thinkers and as the more feline brains usually refuse to engage upon such issues hiding from any problems therein under the guise of being politically correct (ie useless) then it's quite difficult to refine the concepts being thrown around. I intended for the OP to be just the thin end of the wedge firstly so it didn't turn into a lecture and secondly because I'm just not knowledgeable enough about it. Mostly I despise politics and politicians but this little quandry engaged my brain and stuck.

    Zergling,
    I'm not sure that it would lead to an increase in wages as it would be a war of attrition. Who would break first? Those who needed the work done or those who needed the money it would provide? I think that over time the wages would rise but in the case of America I think that's well overdue. The minimum wage here is several times what it is in America... oh nuts that'd be one more subsidy at work... ho hum.

    Whatever,
    Most of those who shout and bawl about the BNP being wonderful do tend to concentrate on the whole "Keep Britain British" but I'm thinking that such people are usually ignored.. why change the habit?

    The points I'm trying to target are reasonable ones where it seems that in fear of being labelled as targeting minorities positive discrimination is allowed to run riot. Now whilst that form of discrimination may look better on the books it still has it's negative side and that winds people up.

    Now I'm not trying to say that if your from Vladivostok that you'll get a job or housing first but that is the perception because you'll be the only person from Vladivostok in the cue so any British person you beat to the front will think that such luck is obviously a conspiracy. However I do see the attitude of welcoming with open arms new cultures, religions, social expectations and such almost without regard for their impact and yet we are told to be flexible and to accommodate these new things, to make allowances. That's not really fair.

    I guess that one thing which could be done is if such things were run on a more local scale so that the locals could decide if they wished to let these new people in and if they would allow them to import all of their customs whole sale. when it's passed down from "the man" it only serves to antagonise people as they are not being asked to do something for this guest but being told to do it or else. I wouldn't suffer that in my home.

    PS Thanks for saying it was interesting Whatever. I was half expecting this all to be shifted to purgatory (if we had one) and there to be plenty of negative rep points for me. So far it's all good.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Default Just a little something for your consideration...

    To make matters worse, read THIS! This would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

    An abbreviated explanation: Nine state legislators from the Mexican state of Sonora traveled to Tucson to complain about Arizona's new employer crackdown on illegals from Mexico. It seems many Mexican illegals are now returning to their hometowns and the officials in the Sonora state government are upset because their return placing a huge burden on their state government.

    This is telling people! If we have unwittingly created a burdon to a Mexican town, can't anyone see how these same folks have created a burdon on our own state(s)? It also amazes me of the nerve of the Mexican government.

    By the way, I don't have any problem with immigration; I have a big problem with illegal immigration.
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  9. #19
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    To make matters worse, read THIS! This would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

    An abbreviated explanation: Nine state legislators from the Mexican state of Sonora traveled to Tucson to complain about Arizona's new employer crackdown on illegals from Mexico. It seems many Mexican illegals are now returning to their hometowns and the officials in the Sonora state government are upset because their return placing a huge burden on their state government.

    This is telling people! If we have unwittingly created a burdon to a Mexican town, can't anyone see how these same folks have created a burdon on our own state(s)? It also amazes me of the nerve of the Mexican government.

    By the way, I don't have any problem with immigration; I have a big problem with illegal immigration.
    To be honest I hadn't thought of the whole border jumpers situation. I can't believe that the companies wouldn't be held responsible for hiring workers without proper papers anyway.

    I'm glad we have no borders, not that it seems to stop the problem entirely but such situations I'd imagine are quite rare over here. It'd cost them more to travel back to their home than they would earn!

    Still are you saying then that the Mexican are effectively suing those companies for now returning illegal workers back to their homes or am I not reading it straight?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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    Just read the next post, this one got screwed up.

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