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  1. #11
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I will do my best to avoid eating this salmon, too, but I avoid eating any salmon, so I guess it doesn't make a difference.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #12
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    We would have done it differently, using careful breeding techniques, but now we can skip all that crap and go directly to the result we want. Humans have been genetically engineering organisms for thousands of years.
    What exactly are we rushing towards?
    How do you even know this is the result you want when you have no idea what the long term consequences will be?

    Yes, skip all that "crap."

    Did it ever occur to you that there are more important things than results? That, maybe, spending years and even generations breeding livestock has just as important an impact on the people as it does the animal? That there is a distinct difference between viewing animals as nothing more than dna in a petrie dish and the art of birthing, raising and slaughtering animals with your own two hands?

    We have lost our relationship with our food. We have lost our relationship with animals. We have lost our relationship with life. Life is simply a means to a scientific end.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    What exactly are we rushing towards?
    How do you even know this is the result you want when you have no idea what the long term consequences will be?

    Yes, skip all that "crap."

    Did it ever occur to you that there are more important things than results? That, maybe, spending years and even generations breeding livestock has just as important an impact on the people as it does the animal? That there is a distinct difference between viewing animals as nothing more than dna in a petrie dish and the art of birthing, raising and slaughtering animals with your own two hands?

    We have lost our relationship with our food. We have lost our relationship with animals. We have lost our relationship with life. Life is simply a means to a scientific end.
    What we are rushing towards depends entirely on the present circumstances. What worked many years ago may become less feasible in the future. We can draw reasonable conclusions about what would happen if we took a particular course of action to help us make the first decision.

    Meanwhile, the process you speak of is only empowering (in my opinion) all involved. The humans test the limits of their capacity to improve their own lives, while the most favorable specimens are assured survival, their interdependence with humanity becoming pure mutualism.

    So, the relationship actually becomes more intertwined. This is obvious with livestock, many of which can no longer survive without people, and people are better off with proven, domesticated reserves of food. Science empowers life.

  4. #14
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    What exactly are we rushing towards?
    How do you even know this is the result you want when you have no idea what the long term consequences will be?

    Yes, skip all that "crap."

    Did it ever occur to you that there are more important things than results? That, maybe, spending years and even generations breeding livestock has just as important an impact on the people as it does the animal? That there is a distinct difference between viewing animals as nothing more than dna in a petrie dish and the art of birthing, raising and slaughtering animals with your own two hands?

    We have lost our relationship with our food. We have lost our relationship with animals. We have lost our relationship with life. Life is simply a means to a scientific end.
    Very well stated!

    Two things I have not seen mentioned in this thread:

    (1) There is a difference between FARM RAISED SALMON and WILD/OCEANIC SALMON. One is raised in man made ponds, dug in soil polluted by man, and fed grains enhanced by man. The other is born and raised in natural water systems of the Pacific Northwest.

    (2) A few years ago a study was released that stated the levels of dioxin-like chemicals in farm raised fish of ANY KIND were astronomical in comparison to those of its naturally born cousins. In fact, the dioxin-like chemical levels of HUMAN BREAST MILK were HIGHEST in NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN. The breast milk of CANADIAN women was much lower in content of dioxin-like chemicals.

    Y'all still want to munch down on Frankenfish?
    I wouldn't eat it.
    You get what you pay for.

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  5. #15
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    What exactly are we rushing towards?
    How do you even know this is the result you want when you have no idea what the long term consequences will be?
    We know exactly what the long term consequences would be.
    Cheaper food which requires less energy to produce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Did it ever occur to you that there are more important things than results? That, maybe, spending years and even generations breeding livestock has just as important an impact on the people as it does the animal? That there is a distinct difference between viewing animals as nothing more than dna in a petrie dish and the art of birthing, raising and slaughtering animals with your own two hands?

    We have lost our relationship with our food. We have lost our relationship with animals. We have lost our relationship with life. Life is simply a means to a scientific end.
    Your sentimental idealization of the importance of growing/raising your own food aside, what will ultimately be seen is consumers making an informed choice one way or another.

    Just as consumers have chosen to shop at big box stores, rather than mom & pop general stores, consumers will choose to eat genetically modified vegetables and fruits (which they already do) and (hopefully soon) meat.
    Argue about the ethics of it all you want, it boils down to very simple economics.

    People who live in countries wherein food is plentiful, frankly, have no right to be talking shit about genetically modified/enhanced foodstuffs when an enormous portion of the world is starving.
    Organic farming will not and cannot feed everyone on the planet sufficiently, not even close.
    Genetically altered crops are a godsend to developing countries and they have LITERALLY saved billions of lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    (1) There is a difference between FARM RAISED SALMON and WILD/OCEANIC SALMON. One is raised in man made ponds, dug in soil polluted by man, and fed grains enhanced by man. The other is born and raised in natural water systems of the Pacific Northwest.

    (2) A few years ago a study was released that stated the levels of dioxin-like chemicals in farm raised fish of ANY KIND were astronomical in comparison to those of its naturally born cousins. In fact, the dioxin-like chemical levels of HUMAN BREAST MILK were HIGHEST in NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN. The breast milk of CANADIAN women was much lower in content of dioxin-like chemicals.
    On the other hand, fish from ocean sources are known to unilaterally have higher mercury levels than farmed fish.
    Things are not black and white; "natural", whatever that even means, doesn't equate to better 100% of the time, or even the majority of the time.
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  6. #16
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Breast, sans the dark out meat, please!
    Got it. Nipple still in-tact.

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  7. #17
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    On the other hand, fish from ocean sources are known to unilaterally have higher mercury levels than farmed fish.
    And so the metrics begin to unfold.
    Your point is interesting.

    I don't think it necessary or beneficial for people to ponder on what "safe" levels of consumed mercury OR dioxin are, let alone try to quantify comparitive toxicity between the two.

    There are too many moving targets, and the point is man has poisoned the Earth and due to being at the top of the food chain, is hence being exposed to former biochemical hazards via bio-magnification.

    So, the only safe answer we would both agree on in theory would be to eat ZERO fish.

    As in many cases, this consumer choice boils down to picking one's poison.
    You eat your Franken-Salmon, and I'll eat it's natural Coho cousin, and we can toast each other with a fat glass of wine, and both be content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    Things are not black and white; "natural", whatever that even means, doesn't equate to better 100% of the time, or even the majority of the time.
    I am totally aware of the many shades of grey that surround decisions, both major and minor.

    The term "better" as used above is completely subjective, and therefore very difficult to assign a level of superiority (whether it is a simple >51% majority or 100% of the time) to when compared to something else.

    This topic might very well boil down to:

    "You say Poe-TAE-to, I say Poe-TAH-toe."

    Have a good evening, Bro!

    -Halla

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Got it. Nipple still in-tact.

    Well that clears everything up! FTW! Bwahahahaaaa!!!
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  8. #18
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    I'll take my cancer with a side of FUCK NO!

  9. #19
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    Your sentimental idealization of the importance of growing/raising your own food aside, what will ultimately be seen is consumers making an informed choice one way or another.

    Just as consumers have chosen to shop at big box stores, rather than mom & pop general stores, consumers will choose to eat genetically modified vegetables and fruits (which they already do) and (hopefully soon) meat.
    Argue about the ethics of it all you want, it boils down to very simple economics.

    People who live in countries wherein food is plentiful, frankly, have no right to be talking shit about genetically modified/enhanced foodstuffs when an enormous portion of the world is starving.
    Organic farming will not and cannot feed everyone on the planet sufficiently, not even close.
    Genetically altered crops are a godsend to developing countries and they have LITERALLY saved billions of lives.
    Yes, ignore the ethics! Ignore sentimentality!

    Those things take to much time and energy to think about and are ultimately unquantifiable.

    What we NEED to focus on is what is measurable and that boils down nicely into economics.

    The problem is that while science and economics may tell you what is more efficient it can never bestow value onto anything.

    Maybe genetically modified foods have saved billions of lives. But, the science that made that possible has no way of placing value on those lives or on the ethical and sentimental costs of saving those lives. Billions is merely a number and nothing more or less.

    Science merely tells us what we can do. It can never tell us what we should do.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Are you implying that improving the capacity to deliver sustenance to the human population is what we should not do?

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