User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 46

  1. #11
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Interesting points.

    What about the 'tyranny of the minority'?

    Minorities tend to block vote for certain candidates that best suit their needs as marginalized group and because the 'majority' splits its votes across the board, the 'minority' candidate can often end up winning. Look at Canada. You only have to vaguely raise the French issue with a Canadian to be on the receiving end of an all out political rant about this sort of situation.

    Not only that, you can also have a situation in hyper-egalitarian societies where authorities can end up overcompensating for the disadvantages experienced by the minority (often motivated by the above political scenario) and effectively offer them greater rights and greater political/cultural status than that of the majority (which, arguably, is increasingly happening in my own country).
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #12
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4sop
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    1,505

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What obligations to minorities owe to majorities? Is it as important as the obligations which majorities may owe minorities by virtue of the power disparity between them based upon numbers? Do members of majority groups feel a need to identify or defend minorities purely by virtue of a minorities numbers and hence vulnerability or is it something else?

    I've been thinking about this lately because I've been thinking about democracy and also social conscience, a lot of what I consider key political questions relate to minority-majority relations and the power relations which are consequent.
    A reoccurring problem throughout the world, I agree, a very tough balance to find justice and equality for both groups.

    Minorities owe the majorities consideration based on the numbers on that side. And the majorities owe the minorities considerations despite the numbers on that side.

    Both groups want to preserve something and their religions/cultures/ways-of-life/economy contradict and expel each other. I suppose ethically, it will be about which preservation should take higher priority. If it's between a country's territorial boundaries and a group's 'unique' religion/culture, loosely for example Tibet and China, then ethically, Tibet deserves preservation over their minority group, not the majority will or benefit.

    But that's a highly subjective view and priorities shift with each society/country/situation/individual so we are in a never ending battle. There are many minority groups who want to separate from the majority/from the more populated, more powerful countries but cannot.

    Vulnerability is part of it, the saving the under-dogs idea, the ones who are fighting for something but keeps losing against the 'bad guys/the fortunate ones/the safe ones/the privileged'. Also, if a person from a majority group is compelled by an aspect of the minority group that is absent from the majority group, then s/he will reach out to preserve that aspect. Majorities are viewed as the loud, trampling bullies while the minorities are viewed as the unfortunate victims who are close to being wiped out.

    This changes however if the minorities are say, the upper-class and has known, clear advantages over the majority, the middle-working class. Then the sympathy shifts. So the sympathy comes from (mostly) economic circumstances and lifestyles. If the Tibetans were all rich and lived in luxurious environments and wanted independence, I doubt we'd all have the same sympathy. Their suffering is well-documented and so, the human rights groups are on their side. So perhaps it's not about the numbers, but which group suffers the most?

    It's equally important for both minorities and majorities to be considerate of each other, neither deserves more recognition than the other. Very tough balance to obtain.

    Excuse the rambling.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Socionics
    INT-
    Posts
    294

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What obligations to minorities owe to majorities? Is it as important as the obligations which majorities may owe minorities by virtue of the power disparity between them based upon numbers? Do members of majority groups feel a need to identify or defend minorities purely by virtue of a minorities numbers and hence vulnerability or is it something else?

    I've been thinking about this lately because I've been thinking about democracy and also social conscience, a lot of what I consider key political questions relate to minority-majority relations and the power relations which are consequent.
    Well, I don't think that people should gain or lose any rights by virtue of being part of a certain group, minority or majority.
    I don't think anyone owes anyone anything other than respect as equals.
    Not what you we're getting at?
    INTP 4w5 SX/SP
    Tritype 4/5/8

  4. #14
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    Well, I don't think that people should gain or lose any rights by virtue of being part of a certain group, minority or majority.
    I don't think anyone owes anyone anything other than respect as equals.
    Not what you we're getting at?
    +100

    Group rights tend to be anathema to individual rights; neither majorities nor minorities owe each other anything beyond individual rights (which does not preclude subsequent societal bargaining, usually at the micro-level). That said, communities of people organized into state entities are better off making the identity-criteria as broad and inclusive as possible so long as it does not reach the point in which the emotional bonds of an "imagined community" are excessively compromised.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Kephalos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5(?)
    Socionics
    LII
    Posts
    103

    Default

    I think the language used in the first post is misleading. On an individual level a man could be considered part of the minority for some purposes and a majority for others: a Black man can be a member of a minoritary racial group, but he may belong to a majoritarian political group like the Democratic Party and finally be part of a minority for having studied at X University. So where does that leave him? Minority or Majority? Suppose that the Democratic Party imposes a tax on graduates of X University: have his rights been trumped or has he exercised his majority power, or both, or neither?

  6. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    481

    Default

    Want equality? Treat everyone equally. No more of this demographic minority representative crap. I don't care what color your skin or what your religion is. In my mind, you're a human being, period.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    I'm not a fan of identity politics.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    IxFx
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    859

    Default

    I just read the thread title, and I'm saying right now, I'm a part of the minority! Now, let's go back and read what this thread is all about.

    Edited: I'm too stupid to understand what this thread is about, I'm leaving.

  9. #19
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6
    Posts
    1,108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Democracies do have a tendency to degenerate into "tyrannies of the majority" as Tocqueville put it. But when it comes to issues related to civil rights for example, the focus is almost entirely on the minorities. The simple notion that majorities have rights too is often forgotten or dismissed.
    True, but it hasn't always been that way.



    The KKK existed quite well under a democracy. Died under one too. I think the Athenians, the original democracy, kept slaves, though better treated than many, I gather.

    Certainly, how the minorites get treated depends great degree upon the attitudes of the majority, but that isn't limited to democracies. Many a Jew got killed in the monachies of europe around the times of the crusades.

    Honestly, I tend to think how a minority gets treated tends to depend upon the attitudes of the people more than the system of government they live under.

    Do minorities owe the majority more (or vice versa)? I don't think so, really. I guess the fundamental duty of either is to not make life harder for the other. I confess as I tend not to get very philiosphical about such thing!
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  10. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Interesting points.

    What about the 'tyranny of the minority'?

    Minorities tend to block vote for certain candidates that best suit their needs as marginalized group and because the 'majority' splits its votes across the board, the 'minority' candidate can often end up winning. Look at Canada. You only have to vaguely raise the French issue with a Canadian to be on the receiving end of an all out political rant about this sort of situation.

    Not only that, you can also have a situation in hyper-egalitarian societies where authorities can end up overcompensating for the disadvantages experienced by the minority (often motivated by the above political scenario) and effectively offer them greater rights and greater political/cultural status than that of the majority (which, arguably, is increasingly happening in my own country).
    This is what I'd like to discuss, not simply within the formal political and other systems but the informal or social scene too. Minority-Majority relations I think can and do generate communication blocks and barriers.

    I'd go so far as to say that it goes beyond communication to how people think and I do not mean that negative or atavistic thinking has to be repressed and eventually it dies out, that's hopeful in the extreme, instead what I think happens is that people get toxic and then greviance boils up in funny ways.

    Some of what I find unusual about this topic and how it is framed sometimes is the underlinning of disparity or diversity as good things, when those are things which are not really valued or aimed at, generally when they are celebrated its because there is a hope of an eventual or ultimate consensus which will reflect that of a single opinion or issue. At least that's been my experience of the left wing of the political spectrum, especially in the nineties and just post-2000, I'd meet myriad trotskyist factions who would frame discussions in this way but it was plain that they really only wanted to swell their opinion base or supporters.

    I would not typify the societies in which this happens as hyper-egalitarian though. Perhaps if you where using that label or description in a prejorative way, its a pretty distorted or degenerate version of egalitarianism.

Similar Threads

  1. Seeking help from people in Biology and related fields/majors
    By ygolo in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-25-2009, 02:44 AM
  2. Double Majoring & Minoring & Career..ing
    By rainoneventide in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-28-2009, 10:09 AM
  3. INTRO ; MBTI & Co-relation wt. Keirsey 4 Temperaments
    By Rakesh in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-01-2007, 09:06 AM
  4. Relational Competition and "Social" Bullying
    By Maverick in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 05-24-2007, 08:24 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO