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  1. #71
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    'Pope Nope': A Cool Welcome for Benedict in Britain - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

    Anyone up for protesting?

    Btw if we're funding his royal irrelevancy then why the hell are we expected to pay to get a seat? Are they just trying to wean out the low income riff raff?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #72
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I've already seen TV shows about those who want to protest, among them gay militant Thatchell who will no doubt discuss the "sexual rights" of children with the Pope, he's very big on the idea, sees children as the next group needing liberated after homosexuals, commented on that already.

    At the opposite end of the spectrum there's the free presbytarians, no fan of gay rights and more akin to something like the christian right in the US.

    There'll be a lot of protestors I guess. The world has gotten like that, no one is willing to offer anyone any quarter or any respect.

  3. #73
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Tax payers pay for rapists, murderers, thiefs etc etc. 's stay in prison too.
    Though the dynamic is different. (protecting society )
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #74
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    In it, you can clearly see I have presented criteria of sorts for why I might think the Pope is or isn't important. Those criteria are even based on objective, or rather, attempted estimations of objective factors. With such things presented, you should actually acknowledge them. You could have engaged me in ths discussion by either making a case for how the Pope might have been important outside of the factors I had considered, or that he was important within one of the factors I had given and I just didn't realize it (which I was even inviting by questioning how much the Pope could mobolize Catholics). In this situation, you really can't in any good sense or taste bypass all of that and say the other person's position is non-sensical and amounts to pure solipsism or subjectivism. The accusation is ironically derived entirely from your selective consideration of events.
    You've essentially been hijacking the thread (which if you remember was about the Pope's visit to the Uk being funded by British taxpayers) with a fatuous, cherry-picked, highly subjective argument about why you don't think the pope should be important, and insisting that people engage with you on it.
    I could have done all sorts of things if you had showed a preparedness to engage with the actual issues, and the points others have raised. Do I have to make any more clear why I didn't?

    There is no great new point here for me to add about the topic of this thread because you have yet to actually acknowledge the one I already made.
    This is because the points you are making are trivial, irrelevant, and lack a firm grounding in either context or knowledege. And as Peguy has pointed out several times now, and I'm doing now, did not give any indication of being informed about the actual issues, or wanting to become more so. What do you expect to be agknowledged? That you have an opinion on the subject? You're welcome to it, just that I happen to find it absurd and very poorly informed. It's also very questionably relevant to the original topic of the thread and appears likely to drag it off further. In any case, there's not the slightest point in complaining about other people not addressing your argument on your terms if you're failing to address what they are saying on theirs.

    And finally, for the hell of it, my somewhat sardonic comment that Michael Jackson was more important than the Pope was referring to the fact that Michael was, by way of his career as a musician and dancer, and through the massive amount of commercial success his career, had possibly more of an artistic and economic contribution than what the Pope has to offer. This could not have been hard to figure out. I practically spelled it out in the previous post. If you didn't like that, you could have actually presented a dissenting argument, but you failed to do that.
    This is because you're cherry-picking what you define as "relevance" to fit your own beliefs, and as you don't appear to understand the topic very well either, arguing with you about it is necessarily more of an educative process than a disputative one for the person who chooses to do the arguing. I'll explain why I'm reluctant to get into this in a minute. It also seems like you're posting here to fish for attention by insisting that people engage with your beliefs that the Pope "should" not matter rather than actually address the topic, your argument does not in fact directly address the topic, and I'm reluctant to give it any more attention than it deserves for every one of the reasons just given. Attention is validation.

    Regardless of all of this, I could not ignore the things that were wrong with what Ragshree was saying totally irrespective of what the content of this discussion was. I was responding to him as I did because, in any topic, his conduct would have been poor, and not in an irrelevant way. I have a sometimes insuppressible dislike for misrepresentation like that.
    Interesting. I learn something new here every day. In fact, one of these days I might even see you make a post that's actually saying something relevant and well informed instead of relying on the pedantic rehashing of circularly derived premises, founded on a quite inadequate knowledge base which you seem reluctant to expand regardless of the opportunities given you. How about considering that I might have a sometimes insuppressible dislike for the misrepresentation of ignorance as knowledge?

    As for all of the areas where you think I'm lacking, you choose to criticize me on them from a distance, as if you are already out of the discussion while you are telling me to get out of it. You are saying "stop, you are wrong", instead of showing me I'm wrong, even leading my in the direction. Why would that work?

    I've had to take up looking this crap up myself, since you weren't interested in elaborating about a single one of your points. I'll get back to you on it.
    If you'd been paying attention to the inferences of your own position, you might realise that you had essentially answered your own question here, but in case you still don't realise I'll try to explicate it.

    How about this, Magic - it's not anyone else's responsibility to educate you on the actual issues, you need to do that for yourself. And yet you persist, showing your lack of understanding as you do so, and showing your unwillingness to gain any further understanding by simply dismissing whatever contradicts your predetermined ideology as irrelevant. The contempt you yourself admit for the actual facts is manifest in the tone and content of your posting, particularly the last, grudging comment about "looking this crap up for myself".

    How much time do you expect other people to want to devote to your education if you yourself are unwilling to do so? Everyone gives up a certain amount of time and energy to post in this thread - I myself would rather not devote more of it than necessary to the rather soul-destroying exercise of "Telling Magic things he doesn't want to hear, can't be bothered to find out for himself and will probably ignore anyway". Nevertheless, I have made some serious points about the historical and political context of his visit to the UK (the latter being the original topic of the thread, if you remember) and there's an abundance of material various people have posted throughout it which you can read if you want to expand your own knowledge.

    If you want to learn, instead of just argue fallacious points for the mere sake of it as you appear to be doing, and are prepared to display a little humility by actually listening to others instead of insisting that your own beliefs, no matter how ill-informed, are all that is worth discussing, I'm sure people would be happy to inform you further. Not so much myself, as I wouldn't claim any particular expertise on this subject, but Peguy and Lark, and probably some of the other Catholics around, appear to know their stuff. I'm learning a certain amount from reading them here - I might suggest you try doing likewise.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  5. #75
    He who laughs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I am curious about what the actual, practical significance of his visit here would be, supposed followers and all.



    He supposedly has tons and tons of followers, so perhaps a better example than football would be a pesron. How about Michael Jackson when he was at his peak? So people in some vague sense follow this person, but what does hosting them actually amount to?

    Does the person have some significant ecomic output?
    Does the person control a significant military force?
    Does the person have valuable research to share?
    Does the person have any artistic contributions to make (we're in weak territory now).

    Is there any kind of tangible service this person will provied to better society, or horrible crime against society that the person must be prevented from committing?

    I'd say Michael Jackson might have the Pope beat on two grounds, having had an atristic contribution to make and commanding more economic output than the Pope.

    If a convincing case could be made that the Pope had real power to mobilize a significant number of Catholics to do something he wanted to do, I might start lisetning. In this day an age, I do not believe he has that power, or even if he did, would seriously try to wield it.
    :rolli:


    Insulting and under-estimating fluff. :rolli:
    No surprisingly it seems he brings up a valid point.

  6. #76
    He who laughs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    OK. I guess we should just ban contraception then?

    What does that have to do with him visiting UK?

  7. #77
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've already seen TV shows about those who want to protest, among them gay militant Thatchell who will no doubt discuss the "sexual rights" of children with the Pope, he's very big on the idea, sees children as the next group needing liberated after homosexuals, commented on that already.

    At the opposite end of the spectrum there's the free presbytarians, no fan of gay rights and more akin to something like the christian right in the US.

    There'll be a lot of protestors I guess. The world has gotten like that, no one is willing to offer anyone any quarter or any respect.
    How much respect does the head of a pseudo country set up by a dictator who's currently linked to cases of abuse and has offended multiple sections of the international community deserve? I'm sorry but fancy robes and mythology aside he's got little to recommend him and to top it off he's visiting the country which rejected the religion years ago.

    It's not exactly the recipe one would choose for a respectful visit.

    Next time send us the Dali Lama. He's funny as hell.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #78
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    he's just the latest in a line of succession as the vicar of Christ
    Let's not make this sectarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I'm surprised and grateful this conversation hasn't degenerated into a discrepancy about the creditability of Catholicism, at which point an immovable object would collide with an unstoppable force and there would be little to no mutual understanding to be had. The OP was certainly geared to provoke that sort of response.
    And what is this post geared to provoke? Me? That seems to be your sole purpose in trolling around after me and insulting me in rep, VM and PM. Have you got a crush on me or something?
    Not interested, dude. Quit it or I'll report you for harassment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I think I read somewhere that we're not footing the whole bill, it's shared with the Vatican. Also I believe we are supposed to pay for guests invited by the Queen. Something about handing people the power to spend our money...
    Of course, I resent paying for the monarchy too....this is just a spit in the ocean.
    I'm thinking about going to Glasgow to throw rotten eggs. Wanna come?

    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    What does that have to do with him visiting UK?
    Nothing. Read it in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    How much respect does the head of a pseudo country set up by a dictator who's currently linked to cases of abuse and has offended multiple sections of the international community deserve? I'm sorry but fancy robes and mythology aside he's got little to recommend him and to top it off he's visiting the country which rejected the religion years ago.

    It's not exactly the recipe one would choose for a respectful visit.

    Next time send us the Dali Lama. He's funny as hell.

    I would totally pay for that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #79
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I would totally pay for that!
    Precisely. If we're going to get an expensive visit then why isn't it by someone actually interesting?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #80
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You just don't get it do you Magic? Especially in trying to seperate the current Pope from earlier popes, ignoring the fact he's just the latest in a line of succession as the vicar of Christ and the head of the Papacy.
    Even acknowledging the Pope's status as a world leader, why should he be exempt from the personal scrutiny other world leaders are subject to? This pope is different from the last pope and is likely to issue different edicts based on those differences.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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