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  1. #51
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Given the prevalence of ""British anti-Catholic bias" which you suppose, how can it possibly be justified that they are being asked to subsidise a visit by its chief advocate?

    Why don't we just pay for Osama bin Laden to go on a world cruise while we're about it? (Like we're not already...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #52

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    It's not an irrelevent state, its got some of the best special forces there is, its also a major financial market speculator, has control of a huge segment of world history in the form of artifacts, ancient scripts and extremely rare books, these are a form of wealth too and a lot of them are priceless, it provides a hell of a lot of the anciliary health and social and even education services in the developed world and most of the primary ones in the developing world.

    It can be a source of intelligence gathering but I think this is much exaggerated and exploited by conspiracy theorists, instead it is uniquely placed to carry out serious longitudinal studies of economic and cultural growth and decline and the factors influencing these outcomes. In no small part because it possesses the primary sources to examine and tell why.

    Could the RCC mobilise a fighting force like it once did in the past, maybe and maybe not, I'd hope that it wouldnt and that that wouldnt ever happen although if you believe half of the CIA fact book or other less reprehensible sources that are around liberation theology in Latin American and, perversely, also the reactionary religious anti-theorists where both closely examined by the Vatican to see if either could be vehicles for a renewed political catholicism.

    The reality is that political catholicism only really exists in the minds of either frightened or excited secularists and protestants. It never was a force in the major conflicts which it was believed to be a key player in, ie Northern Ireland, and its supposed existence was more a propaganda tool to mobilise useful idiots in opposition to.

  3. #53
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    You know Lark, until you brought up N. Ireland I never once in my life ever even considered the idea that the IRA might have the backing of Rome. Whether I'm right or wrong they have always been two distinct and unrelated entities in my mind.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You know Lark, until you brought up N. Ireland I never once in my life ever even considered the idea that the IRA might have the backing of Rome. Whether I'm right or wrong they have always been two distinct and unrelated entities in my mind.


    Not in the minds of many, certainly not in the minds of Ulster Unionists and Loyalists, partition in Ireland came about because the Ulster protestants lead by Carson believed that Irish independence, home rule, would mean rome rule, and they are still believing it to this day.

    That's despite the fact that since the days of De Valera the republicans have been inclined to a secularist and socialist anti-clerical sympathies as much as the pan-roman catholic traditionalism of Arthur Griffith etc.

    The Free Presbytarians, Rev. Ian Paisley's followers, are preparing to protest the Papal visit to the UK, I'm not sure if it was Magic Porifen (spelling) who posted it in the thread but its correct to say that the UK with its history would be as likely to declare war on Rome as invite a Papal visit.

    From the monarchial wars of religion, aimed at securing a protestant royal ascendency, to the Cromwellian republican interlude, or "glorious revolution" to the restoration, rise of John Knox's followers in Scotland and their influence on the child King James who through acts of union created Great Britain from the seperate entities of Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales the history of the UK was the history of a protestant struggle against Roman Catholicism (although in some instances it was also a struggle of protestants against the established churchs, ie anglo-catholics).

  5. #55
    Sniffles
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    There's always been a rocky relationship between the Church and the IRA. Probably a better example of 'political Catholicism' at work was the Na Léinte Gorma aka Blueshirts.

  6. #56
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Nope, actually I was waiting for the Sponge's forthcoming exposition of why his position that he doesn't see why the Pope is any more significant than Michael Jackson, therefore the Pope is no more significant than Michael Jackson, is a valid argument, the true scope and complexity of which is lost on we poor benighted beings who do not posess his own superior understanding of these matters. He appears to be implying that he has something pretty good up his sleeve here, and it's going to have to be good to get me over my current impression that he's just arguing from ignorance and refusing to take into account anything that might leave him better informed. I'm waiting with bated breath to see what he's going to come up with.
    The problem is that I already wrote this post, which in fact, your comments show you must have read:

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    He supposedly has tons and tons of followers, so perhaps a better example than football would be a pesron. How about Michael Jackson when he was at his peak? So people in some vague sense follow this person, but what does hosting them actually amount to?

    Does the person have some significant ecomic output?
    Does the person control a significant military force?
    Does the person have valuable research to share?
    Does the person have any artistic contributions to make (we're in weak territory now).

    Is there any kind of tangible service this person will provied to better society, or horrible crime against society that the person must be prevented from committing?

    I'd say Michael Jackson might have the Pope beat on two grounds, having had an atristic contribution to make and commanding more economic output than the Pope.

    If a convincing case could be made that the Pope had real power to mobilize a significant number of Catholics to do something he wanted to do, I might start lisetning. In this day an age, I do not believe he has that power, or even if he did, would seriously try to wield it.
    In it, you can clearly see I have presented criteria of sorts for why I might think the Pope is or isn't important. Those criteria are even based on objective, or rather, attempted estimations of objective factors. With such things presented, you should actually acknowledge them. You could have engaged me in ths discussion by either making a case for how the Pope might have been important outside of the factors I had considered, or that he was important within one of the factors I had given and I just didn't realize it (which I was even inviting by questioning how much the Pope could mobolize Catholics). In this situation, you really can't in any good sense or taste bypass all of that and say the other person's position is non-sensical and amounts to pure solipsism or subjectivism. The accusation is ironically derived entirely from your selective consideration of events.

    There is no great new point here for me to add about the topic of this thread because you have yet to actually acknowledge the one I already made.

    And finally, for the hell of it, my somewhat sardonic comment that Michael Jackson was more important than the Pope was referring to the fact that Michael was, by way of his career as a musician and dancer, and through the massive amount of commercial success his career, had possibly more of an artistic and economic contribution than what the Pope has to offer. This could not have been hard to figure out. I practically spelled it out in the previous post. If you didn't like that, you could have actually presented a dissenting argument, but you failed to do that.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #57
    Sniffles
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    Give it up Magic.

  8. #58
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Give it up Magic.
    Why should I?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #59
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Why should I?
    Cause you're just needlessly being pedantic on a topic you clearly lack any understanding of, namely the nature and source of the Papacy's temporal power and influence in the world. As I said before, you're simply two centuries too late in whinning about the attention given to the Pope as a world leader.

    Not to mention that horseshit about the Pope's lacking artistic influence than Michael Jackson, which again ignores the role this Pope and plenty of other popes past have played as patrons of the arts(as can be seen in the Vatican's art collection, which remains one of the most impressive in the world).

    You also clearly lack any knowledge of the extensive role of Vatican-based charities play around the world, which even secular authorities like the UN and several countries have acknolwedged.

    The role that the Vatican's extensive diplomatic networks had in helping to bring down the Soviet Union has long been acknowledged in mainstream sources, including former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. As I mentioned, Stalin dismissed the Pope by asking how many battalions he commands, and 50 years later the first Polish Pope gave a reply.

    The more you speak on this topic, the more you're simply exposing your ignorance, in spite of all the pedantic dressing you may try to hide it behind. When in a hole stop digging.

  10. #60
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Cause you're just needlessly being pedantic on a topic you clearly lack any understanding of, namely the nature and source of the Papacy's temporal power and influence in the world. As I said before, you're simply two centuries too late in whinning about the attention given to the Pope as a world leader.
    Yeah, you didn't explain that. Give me some sources. Enlighten me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Not to mention that horseshit about the Pope's lacking artistic influence than Michael Jackson, which again ignores the role this Pope and plenty of other popes past have played as patrons of the arts(as can be seen in the Vatican's art collection, which remains one of the most impressive in the world).
    I'm not talking about the entire collective history of the Papacy. This is one, contemporary Pope being discussed here. Obviously a number of other questions I raised about the current Pope would not have been applicable to certain previous Popes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You also clearly lack any knowledge of the extensive role of Vatican-based charities play around the world, which even secular authorities like the UN and several countries have acknolwedged.

    The role that the Vatican's extensive diplomatic networks had in helping to bring down the Soviet Union has long been acknowledged in mainstream sources, including former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. As I mentioned, Stalin dismissed the Pope by asking how many battalions he commands, and 50 years later the first Polish Pope gave a reply.

    The more you speak on this topic, the more you're simply exposing your ignorance, in spite of all the pedantic dressing you may try to hide it behind. When in a hole stop digging.
    Regardless of all of this, I could not ignore the things that were wrong with what Ragshree was saying totally irrespective of what the content of this discussion was. I was responding to him as I did because, in any topic, his conduct would have been poor, and not in an irrelevant way. I have a sometimes insuppressible dislike for misrepresentation like that.

    As for all of the areas where you think I'm lacking, you choose to criticize me on them from a distance, as if you are already out of the discussion while you are telling me to get out of it. You are saying "stop, you are wrong", instead of showing me I'm wrong, even leading my in the direction. Why would that work?

    I've had to take up looking this crap up myself, since you weren't interested in elaborating about a single one of your points. I'll get back to you on it.

    EDIT: I just went an searched through your posts in this thread, in case I absentmindedly missed something important. It does not look like I did. Actually, Beefeater, who is barely involved, has contributed the most relevant piece of information so far.

    A question, which I've already presented, is if the Pope today has credible influence on people in any area of major political importance as John Paul II did.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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