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  1. #31
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    Which means it all amounts to some kind of cultural opinion. I suppose this is why someone who rejects the Pope might feel it a waste of money to pay for a visit.
    Everything is a waste of money (to someone). I would assert that after you break the ~100 million zealous followers mark, you get a pass, maybe some diplomatic immunity, and free parking. So, youtubers and bloggers, rejoice under my new administration.

  2. #32
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Like football.
    You don't seem to be able to grasp that, although the Pope is irrelevant to you, he's quite relevant in a real, leadership way to millions of people... and that makes him of interest as a visiting head of state.

    If you could just step outside your own head for just a minute and see if you could grasp someone else's perspective... hell, just grasp that someone else can HAVE a perspective... this might start to make sense to you.

  3. #33
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Everything is a waste of money (to someone). I would assert that after you break the ~100 million zealous followers mark, you get a pass, maybe some diplomatic immunity, and free parking. So, youtubers and bloggers, rejoice under my new administration.
    I am curious about what the actual, practical significance of his visit here would be, supposed followers and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You don't seem to be able to grasp that, although the Pope is irrelevant to you, he's quite relevant in a real, leadership way to millions of people... and that makes him of interest as a visiting head of state.
    He supposedly has tons and tons of followers, so perhaps a better example than football would be a pesron. How about Michael Jackson when he was at his peak? So people in some vague sense follow this person, but what does hosting them actually amount to?

    Does the person have some significant ecomic output?
    Does the person control a significant military force?
    Does the person have valuable research to share?
    Does the person have any artistic contributions to make (we're in weak territory now).

    Is there any kind of tangible service this person will provied to better society, or horrible crime against society that the person must be prevented from committing?

    I'd say Michael Jackson might have the Pope beat on two grounds, having had an atristic contribution to make and commanding more economic output than the Pope.

    If a convincing case could be made that the Pope had real power to mobilize a significant number of Catholics to do something he wanted to do, I might start lisetning. In this day an age, I do not believe he has that power, or even if he did, would seriously try to wield it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    If you could just step outside your own head for just a minute and see if you could grasp someone else's perspective... hell, just grasp that someone else can HAVE a perspective... this might start to make sense to you.
    Insulting and under-estimating fluff. :rolli:
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #34
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    [lengthy restatement of original premise]
    Never mind.

  5. #35
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    It's the allegiance of the entire Latin world and big chunks of Europe that make the Vatican worth paying attention to.
    OK. I guess we should just ban contraception then?

    His influence here is negligible. And he's not visiting as a "head of State", he's visiting as a religious leader. One that 80% of the population has no interest in seeing. Let his "state" or his "millions of followers" pay for the privilege.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #36
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Never mind.
    I believe my premise remains the same. He is the head of an irrelevant state, and I can't see the importance of accomodating him, therefore rejecting him on the ground of some philosophical dislike seems fair enough. It's not like it will come at a heavy price! Hell, the subject here isn't even rejection! It's just saying "make your own reservations".


    But whatever, you run along now.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #37
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    Does the person have some significant ecomic output?
    Does the person control a significant military force?
    Does the person have valuable research to share?
    Does the person have any artistic contributions to make (we're in weak territory now).
    If the Pope, being a religious icon, were to meet all of this criteria, would you defend his visit to the UK? Or would you just bitch that, as a religious figure, he has too much power and influence?

    All I'm hearing is a veil of rationalized excuses for a more visceral dislike of the RCC.

  8. #38
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    If the Pope, being a religious icon, were to meet all of this criteria, would you defend his visit to the UK? Or would you just bitch that, as a religious figure, he has too much power and influence?
    I would say it makes sense that we throw down the money for someone that important, whether we like how important that person is or not.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #39
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Hmmm... its funny that people are discrediting the political influence and importance of the pope when the last pope was responsible for the markedly
    peaceful attributes of the greatest political upheaval in the last half century.


    "The collapse of the Iron Curtain would have been impossible without John Paul II."
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Does it bother anyone else that the UK taxpayer is footing the bill for the visit of a Holocaust denier and pedophile apologist?

    BBC News - Taxpayers should not fund Pope's visit, says survey
    Didn't the Brits leave Catholicism a few hundred years ago? I think it would be more appropriate for them to declare war on the Vatican.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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