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  1. #51
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Perhaps, but that's just speculation on your part. To claim that the media and gov't are promoting hatred of Muslims is rather absurd when you dig further. Attacks on Muslims after 9/11 were shown in a negative light; as was the Pastor who recently planned on burning the Quran.

    Even before 9/11 hatred for Muslims based on terrorism shown negatively in the media, as suggested in the film the Siege which dealt with bigotry against Muslims after terrorist attacks.

    What universe are you living in?
    explain how it is absurd? are you sure that if you dig bit more from the part that you start to see as absurd, it starts to make sense again?

    you seriously dont get it? this kind of news about some retard wanting to burn qurans will effect people to form a negative opinion about muslims, even tho some government people would stop it. or maybe not help to form a negative opinion about them all that much, but more to make the negative image even worse in people who already have it, making the hatred in those people even more extreme and giving them extreme ideas like burning qurans. it will also make the government look good in foreigners eyes when they stop the quran burning..

    i dont get what the fact that american media has tried to make muslims look bad even before the 9/11?

    i live in planet of the Tau'ris
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #52
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    September 11th was more of a tragedy as far as the American people choosing emotional overreaction over logic when placed in an adverse situation.
    media showing crying people etc and making all this seem as close thing as possible to all americans is promoting this issue as an emotional thing to americans instead logical thing

    its just a part of the media brain washing imo. who cares what bush says that not all muslims are bad or stuff like that when this thing is already an emotional issue, so there is no room for logic that bush offers to make himself look good
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  3. #53
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    See, if Afghanistan had a nice, functional government we could have tried to make nice with them, get power of extradition the group who planned 9/11, and then request them to extradite them to the US to be tried and put to justice, whatever that may be. (of course, we may well have gotten into a bitchfight with Afghanistan over who gets to prosecute them, because they might want to prosecute them for other stuff, blah blah blah). And then, it would be over, and this would all be political mumbo jumbo afterwards and then it'd probably all be over by 2005.

    But nooooo, Afghanistan is (and always has been, and always will be, as proven by the Soviets and the Persians and sooooo many people) a fuckfest, and the United States decided to go along with this crazy idea that maybe, if THEY set up a nice government that would give them extradition rights there, THEN they could get into their political bitchfight, but only after nation-building, which is probably a terrible idea, and then it gets worse and worse and worse and then some jackass decided to add Iraq into the equation which is like adding 4 to solve the square to one side without adding it to the other side, and then we wonder what the fuck is wrong.

    So this is what annoys me most. Yes, the subsequent wars stemming from 9/11 attacks are a shitstorm and horrible and blah blah blah. But that doesn't make the American people whiny fucking babies for reacting badly. I mean come the fuck on. You guys go crazy over an old man getting kicked to death by some thugs. Imagine all the old men and women on the top story WTC restaurant trying to enjoy the day with their families that got incinerated, each of them as individual old, helpless men and women getting kicked to death by some thugs. Yeah yeah yeah, one death is a tragedy, a million a statistic, that's nice and all, but just try for a minute, will you? And according to any statistics anyway, the death tolls in these wars versus inciting incidents is much better! And all you environmental nazis who think any deaths of Americans are good for the environment, think of all the damage of the toxic smoke and dust coming from those two buildings, cascading all the way into New Jersey. 9/11 doesn't seem so good for the environment now, does it?

    It's wrong to say that everything following 9/11 was right, but it's also wrong to say that everything following 9/11 was wrong.




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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    explain how it is absurd?
    Simple, the predominant creed of America and much of the Western world is multiculturalism, and acceptance and tolerance of Muslims feature prominently within this narrative, especially after 9/11. Bigotry against Muslims is largely protrayed as a leftover from the Dark Ages, at least when based upon religious grounds. The only negativity that's really tolerated or universally promoted at all is against the failure of Muslim cultures to adhere to certain Enlightenment principles, especially in regards to the status of women. But in regards to issues of terrorism and political violence, the standard argument(and this was stressed even on 9/11 and afterwards) is that this is not inherent to Islam. Only New Atheists and certain NeoCon pundits seem to take the argument of Islam being a great evil in of itself very seriously.

  5. #55
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Dear INTP, you seem to be missing a point and making a hypocrite of yourself by doing so. You're judging a people by their government, which is the same thing that the US government did to Afghanistan and Iraq... both of them were ruled by total assholes, just like GW Bush is a total asshole. You seem to be failing to see the fact that ANY mass death of civilians is unexpected, uncalled for and tragic, no matter what country it occurrs in. If it occurrs in something like a terrorist attack it is especially shocking, because nobody expects a terrorist attack (It's like the Spanish Inquisition! ).

    I disagreed with the whole War on Terrorism thing, thinking that there's better approaches that cost less in the way of civilian lives, that doesn't mean that I think that the death of almost 3,000 people- normal, everyday working people who were just going about their lives- is something that can be written off as nothing though. That's a lot of kids who lost a parent, a lot of people who lost a spouse, son, or daughter... or a friend or coworker- that's some horrible last minutes of life for a lot of people- not a way that anyone should die. Just because it happened here doesn't mean that it's any less tragic
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #56
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Simple, the predominant creed of America and much of the Western world is multiculturalism, and acceptance and tolerance of Muslims feature prominently within this narrative, especially after 9/11. Bigotry against Muslims is largely protrayed as a leftover from the Dark Ages, at least when based upon religious grounds. The only negativity that's really tolerated or universally promoted at all is against the failure of Muslim cultures to adhere to certain Enlightenment principles, especially in regards to the status of women. But in regards to issues of terrorism and political violence, the standard argument(and this was stressed even on 9/11 and afterwards) is that this is not inherent to Islam. Only New Atheists and certain NeoCon pundits seem to take the argument of Islam being a great evil in of itself very seriously.
    are you sure that there isnt something that you dont understand or know and it just makes it all seem absurd to you? because i still dont really see any absurdity in this matter
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    those normal working class american people consume way too much also. its sad that you dont know this kind of facts and your logic fails because of that and leads you to think that im a bad person, especially when im thinking about the big picture(people not destroying this planet and causing alot more misery and death while doing that for a long long time for everyone) and the common good.
    Really? Working class people consume more in America than working, middle, or upper class people in Europe? That's ridiculous. Have you ever even been to the United States? You do realize we have poor people here, right, and that it's not the way it looks in the movies?

    Your extreme prejudice against Americans (although Americans are made up of people of different races and nationalities from all over the world, the great experiment in democracy, as it were) is noted, and makes every thing you've said on this subject null and void. You're not being objective here, at all.

    No life is worth more than others, and perhaps if you were genuinely complaining about the richest 1% (who also live in other countries) I would see your point. I understand the importance of using less resources. But you're just anti-American.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    are you sure that there isnt something that you dont understand or know and it just makes it all seem absurd to you? because i still dont really see any absurdity in this matter
    Are you just being contrary just for the sake of being contrary? Or do you have an actual counter-argument?

    Cause all I'm hearing from you is a bunch of incoherent rants about how American deaths are a positive due to your completely arbitrary subjective standard, while raving against the deaths of Iraqis and other fuh fuh fuh. You cannot claim human life lacks any inherent worth one minute and then try to argue as if it does the next. Invoking the enviroment doesn't add much either, since you're still operating under the premise that humans are somehow anti-nature, only that some humans(Americans) are more anti-nature than others(Iraqis). This and so many other inconsistencies within your argument here negates any possible claim towards "logic" on your part.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Are you just being contrary just for the sake of being contrary? Or do you have an actual counter-argument?

    Cause all I'm hearing from you is a bunch of incoherent rants about how American deaths are a positive due to your completely arbitrary subjective standard, while raving against the deaths of Iraqis and other fuh fuh fuh. You cannot claim human life lacks any inherent worth one minute and then try to argue as if it does the next. Invoking the enviroment doesn't add much either, since you're still operating under the premise that humans are somehow anti-nature, only that some humans(Americans) are more anti-nature than others(Iraqis). This and so many other inconsistencies within your argument here negates any possible claim towards "logic" on your part.
    Oh yes, and if we don't 100% agree with his biased argument, then we must be sadly ignorant about any strain on resources or overpopulation in the world.

  10. #60
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Dear INTP, you seem to be missing a point and making a hypocrite of yourself by doing so. You're judging a people by their government, which is the same thing that the US government did to Afghanistan and Iraq... both of them were ruled by total assholes, just like GW Bush is a total asshole. You seem to be failing to see the fact that ANY mass death of civilians is unexpected, uncalled for and tragic, no matter what country it occurrs in. If it occurrs in something like a terrorist attack it is especially shocking, because nobody expects a terrorist attack (It's like the Spanish Inquisition! ).

    I disagreed with the whole War on Terrorism thing, thinking that there's better approaches that cost less in the way of civilian lives, that doesn't mean that I think that the death of almost 3,000 people- normal, everyday working people who were just going about their lives- is something that can be written off as nothing though. That's a lot of kids who lost a parent, a lot of people who lost a spouse, son, or daughter... or a friend or coworker- that's some horrible last minutes of life for a lot of people- not a way that anyone should die. Just because it happened here doesn't mean that it's any less tragic
    emotional point of view:

    people dying is a sad and tragic thing
    the way people died on wtc attack is wrong
    people should live in happy world where everyone would have as good lives as possible
    etc etc

    logical point of view:
    there are too many people in the world for human race(and majority of other animals) survive if we dont start taking better care of it.
    people are too greedy and think too much of their own well being that they wont start making things in better way for the common good. because of that in order for human race to survive(or to avoid way greater misery that the future generations will experience because of our actions(and there will be much much more people experiencing this much greater misery later than what this generation would experience)) many people need to die.
    usa is one of the biggest countries wasting natural recourses and consuming products that are destroying earth(for example intensive farming in southern america that completely destroys the croplands). therefore its much more efficient to kill these people that we need to kill for the common good of human race from usa. therefore dead americans is better than dead iraq people(people in usa consume 7 times the oil than iraq people for example and the farming methods that are used to feed the people in usa is much more destructive than farming methods of iraq people(not to mention that they dont even need as much feeding as people in usa do, since they dont waste food nearly as much)).
    etc etc

    i pick the logical point of view since emotions wont do any good in things like this when it comes to common good and things that truly matter.

    if someone here thinks that its okay to destroy the world and cause more misery to people of the future generation, just so that you could live in a happy happy joy world, i hope you die asap because thats the way of thinking that is leading this world to doom.

    i dont think these prophecies about the end of the world has anything to do with god, fairies, spaghetti monsters or other imaginary characters, its just common sense of the nature of humans that people with mental issues have figured out long time ago with a little coloring of their sick minds.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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