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  1. #41
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I thought that half of the theory was that people had guns cause criminals did?

    Or is that just an argument used?
    It's one argument. People have guns for lots of reasons. And if any groups are responsible for any sort of "arms race", it's the police and gangs/drug cartels (the War on Drugs).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's one argument. People have guns for lots of reasons. And if any groups are responsible for any sort of "arms race", it's the police and gangs/drug cartels (the War on Drugs).
    MUHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    Oh wait, you're serious...

  3. #43
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's one argument. People have guns for lots of reasons. And if any groups are responsible for any sort of "arms race", it's the police and gangs/drug cartels (the War on Drugs).
    It never spills over? Really?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #44
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    It never spills over? Really?
    They are not catalysts. The military, police, and organized crime are catalysts.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #45
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    They are not catalysts. The military, police, and organized crime are catalysts.
    I mean't more in terms of if the military has better guns then gun nuts will desire them (works for me) and if the police and criminals are having an arms race then wouldn't a responsible survivalist/ home defence person also raise their armament? Otherwise what's the point right? Why carry a .22 when the criminals all have flak jackets and so forth.

    I did think of one reason to buy an AK but that's only really related to one movie quote and I can't see it being funny enough to warrant buying the whole weapon.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #46
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I mean't more in terms of if the military has better guns then gun nuts will desire them (works for me) and if the police and criminals are having an arms race then wouldn't a responsible survivalist/ home defence person also raise their armament? Otherwise what's the point right? Why carry a .22 when the criminals all have flak jackets and so forth.
    The way you phrased your original comment, it sounded like you were saying gun nuts were a driving force behind the production of these weapons. That's what an arms race is, isn't it?

    I did think of one reason to buy an AK but that's only really related to one movie quote and I can't see it being funny enough to warrant buying the whole weapon.
    I've known several people with AKs or with the desire to own one. None of them were motivated by the idea of self defense. It was more about collecting and having some fun at a firing range than anything else.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #47
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The way you phrased your original comment, it sounded like you were saying gun nuts were a driving force behind the production of these weapons. That's what an arms race is, isn't it?
    Nope. An arms race usually refers to one side or the other trying to get the next most powerful armament. I guess you can apply it to quantity rather than individual power but I'd also suggest that would involve larger organisations with multiple shooters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I've known several people with AKs or with the desire to own one. None of them were motivated by the idea of self defense. It was more about collecting and having some fun at a firing range than anything else.
    I'd love one. I'd love to have a million quid. I'd love my own tank. Wouldn't an ICBM in the back yard be cool? So what?

    Have an AK for the firing range.... AT the firing range. Have a deactivated one for your collection. Keeping one in the house just seems a step too far. What happens if you get robbed whilst you're out? Your gun does nothing then but provide some criminal with heavy firepower. Not very socially responsible in my book.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Nope. An arms race usually refers to one side or the other trying to get the next most powerful armament. I guess you can apply it to quantity rather than individual power but I'd also suggest that would involve larger organisations with multiple shooters.
    Someone has to manufacture the arms. What is the primary source of demand? I doubt it's gun nuts. There just aren't enough of them.

    I'd love one. I'd love to have a million quid. I'd love my own tank. Wouldn't an ICBM in the back yard be cool? So what?
    I agree. Tanks and ICBMs are practically the same thing as an AK.

    Have an AK for the firing range.... AT the firing range. Have a deactivated one for your collection. Keeping one in the house just seems a step too far. What happens if you get robbed whilst you're out? Your gun does nothing then but provide some criminal with heavy firepower. Not very socially responsible in my book.
    Okay, that isn't the worst plan in the world. I don't know what it has to do with an arms race, but good luck implementing it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #49
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Someone has to manufacture the arms. What is the primary source of demand? I doubt it's gun nuts. There just aren't enough of them.
    Well some claim necessity is the mother of invention but that doesn't mean it's the only source. Take the FN 5.7 as an example, it was made in response to vehicle crews needing a reliable and compact weapon with a round that's similar in ballistic characteristics to a rifle round but without the associated bulk. It also does a nice job of penetrating cover which is nice for criminals who wish to be feared and also nice for gun nuts who perhaps aren't so concerned with over penetration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I agree. Tanks and ICBMs are practically the same thing as an AK.
    Really? Hmmm leave off them mushrooms... That Metaphor is a swine for leaving them lying about...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Okay, that isn't the worst plan in the world. I don't know what it has to do with an arms race, but good luck implementing it.
    Sorted... I call it Britain... <-- This my smug face.

    Really though I find it laughable that in a country where the walls are paper thin you'd consider using such a weapon for home defence. You fire it at an intruder, miss and kill the guy next door who was minding his own business.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #50
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Well some claim necessity is the mother of invention but that doesn't mean it's the only source. Take the FN 5.7 as an example, it was made in response to vehicle crews needing a reliable and compact weapon with a round that's similar in ballistic characteristics to a rifle round but without the associated bulk. It also does a nice job of penetrating cover which is nice for criminals who wish to be feared and also nice for gun nuts who perhaps aren't so concerned with over penetration.
    And?

    Really? Hmmm leave off them mushrooms... That Metaphor is a swine for leaving them lying about...

    Sorted... I call it Britain... <-- This my smug face.
    You lost me.

    Really though I find it laughable that in a country where the walls are paper thin you'd consider using such a weapon for home defence. You fire it at an intruder, miss and kill the guy next door who was minding his own business.
    I don't think most gun nuts are using AKs for home defense. I don't know that much about guns, but even I know a pump action shotgun is superior to an AK for interior home defense. I'm sure most gun nuts know this as well. Most are actually pretty well educated on the subject, far more educated than the average American or British citizen.

    I think you're trying to make this out to be a bigger issue than it really is. The man in the story fired into the ground and he didn't try to use it to defend the interior of his home.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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