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  1. #21

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    Industrialism cant be undone, its an idea and culture which has overtaken most of humanity and shaped the social character, now I think we've even gone beyond that to post-industrialism where the social character needs consumers more than producers.

    So changing that is a little like asking people to return to walking on all fours. Whatever the damage it does people will not go back to a time when they dont only lack choice in all mod cons or fast moving consumer goods but lack food and comfort.

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by Lateralus
    The microorganisms that polluted the atmosphere with oxygen didn't act carelessly? I'd say humans are acting much more carefully.
    They aren't capable of rational judgement nor are they capable of understanding how the ecosystem works. We as human beings however do, thus we can take measures to be more careful about the environment.

    That is not only absurd, but impossible.
    I should have worded this better, I don't mean that every person need to oversee the safety of every individual animal, but we cannot recklessly destroy entire species and throw entire ecosystems out of balance.

    Originally posted by Beargryllz
    I consider all life forms to act carelessly.
    But we as human being don't have to act carelessly.

    Look at how many inefficiencies there are in nature. WE have a responsibility to correct these to increase the consumption of energy even further.
    We also have a responsibility not to destroy entire sections of the environment for our own selfish benefit.

    Every ray of sunshine that touches the planet without empowering the species living here is wasted, every plot of land left undeveloped by life forms is wasted, because we are so good at using energy.
    Um, what? The energy cycle has been running find long before the industrial age, if anything human beings have thown it out of balance.

    The universe wants to use as much energy as possible, so I feel that we have a moral obligation to make this a reality.
    Um, what? Since when did the universe want me to do anything and since when is using as much energy as possible an ethical obligation?

    Unfortunately, this requires destruction as well as construction, but so long as the result is a greater planetary expenditure of energy in all its form, I view it as a success for all life on earth, even if we have the burden to maintain and improve it endlessly.
    Yes sometimes destruction and deconstruction are necessary for better construction and reconstruction, but only when utilized in a balanced manner; the industrial age is destroying more in the environment than it is creating.

    Originally posted by Lark
    Industrialism cant be undone, its an idea and culture which has overtaken most of humanity and shaped the social character, now I think we've even gone beyond that to post-industrialism where the social character needs consumers more than producers.

    So changing that is a little like asking people to return to walking on all fours. Whatever the damage it does people will not go back to a time when they dont only lack choice in all mod cons or fast moving consumer goods but lack food and comfort.
    True, we have advanced this far so it would be pointless to turn back from our technological progress. However if this progress of ours needs to be slowed down in order to preserve and protect the environment then i beleive we are obligated to do so.

    @sushill yadav: I'm still going to comment on the remainder of your post, but later when I have more free time.

  3. #23
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Brain View Post
    Humans are a mere part of nature, we are dependent on other aspects of the ecosystem for survival. And although we produce a lot of food, energy, and water it only serves to aid us, there is little that we are contributing to the ecosystem other than excess waste and destruction.
    There's no inherent reason why we should contribute to the ecosystem beyond whatever benefits our own species, and if we did we'd be the only species in the world that does. Not that that's altogether accurate in any case; our own environment is a ripe ecosystem for many species, most of which we ourselves consider pests, but not all (Birds of prey love perching in high-rise buildings for example).

    And of course that's not to mention the arrogance inherent to the belief that it is our responsibility to save the environment, when it is ultimately mother nature that will chew us out and spit us out, if we're not careful. The Earth has survived for four and a half billion years (that is to say, 100,000 times longer than humanity), and we've only begun to really fuck with it some-odd 200 years ago. It has seen far worse than we could possibly throw at it. Conservation is important, don't get me wrong, but it should be rooted on our own prolonged survival as a species rather than messianic delusions of saving the world.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Brain View Post
    They aren't capable of rational judgement nor are they capable of understanding how the ecosystem works. We as human beings however do, thus we can take measures to be more careful about the environment.
    I'm not sure I get your point. We can and we do.

    But we as human being don't have to act carelessly.
    Even if we were as careful as possible, we'd end up throwing something out of balance simply because ecosystems are more complicated than we are capable of understanding. Also, ecosystems change and animals go extinct without human involvement. You overestimate us.

    Yes sometimes destruction and deconstruction are necessary for better construction and reconstruction, but only when utilized in a balanced manner; the industrial age is destroying more in the environment than it is creating.
    One of the main points of industrial society is that our artifacts do much more with much less than they ever have. We actually go to great lengths to do things in a sustainable manner. We care about efficiency. Whatever isn't being done in such a manner will be corrected by hard limits soon enough, but technology and management will probably advance before that is necessary.
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    There's no inherent reason why we should contribute to the ecosystem beyond whatever benefits our own species, and if we did we'd be the only species in the world that does. Not that that's altogether accurate in any case; our own environment is a ripe ecosystem for many species, most of which we ourselves consider pests, but not all (Birds of prey love perching in high-rise buildings for example).

    And of course that's not to mention the arrogance inherent to the belief that it is our responsibility to save the environment, when it is ultimately mother nature that will chew us out and spit us out, if we're not careful. The Earth has survived for four and a half billion years (that is to say, 100,000 times longer than humanity), and we've only begun to really fuck with it some-odd 200 years ago. It has seen far worse than we could possibly throw at it. Conservation is important, don't get me wrong, but it should be rooted on our own prolonged survival as a species rather than messianic delusions of saving the world.
    This must be emphasized. No species ever made it by making the world "better" for anyone but themselves first and foremost.

  6. #26

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    Food, Clothing & Shelter......these are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans....... Industrial consumer goods must be eliminated immediately.

    Industrial Society is doing research on sustainability after destroying 75 - 90% of Biodiversity and Ecosystems. Nature has already done millions of years of research on sustainability.......Nature has already given us millions of years of proof of sustainability. Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years because their activity was limited to searching for food. Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years because their activity was limited to searching for food. Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years [compared to Industrial Society]because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.



    For the last 50 years Intellectuals have been debating what is good for Environment......Capitalist Industrial Society, Communist Industrial Society or Socialist Industrial Society?

    This is like debating what is good for people.....Capitalist Poison, Communist Poison or Socialist Poison.

    Poison kills people.....it does'nt matter who made it ......Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

    Industrial Activity kills ecosystems.....It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

    All Industrial Activity destroys environment......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network and Shipping Lanes…..they all destroy environment….. It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

    American Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems…..Russian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems……Chinese Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems…….Indian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems……Every Industrial Society destroys ecosystems…… It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

    In just 250 years Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Forests, Wild Animals and Fish Population......Population of Lions, Tigers and Elephants is down to 2 - 5% of what it was 100 years ago......Population of Large Fish in Oceans is down to 10% of what it was 100 years ago.....Industrial Society has poisoned the entire planet with Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste.....It has killed Trillions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of acres of Fertile Soil with Cement And Concrete.

    Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

    Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

    Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years[compared to Industrial Society].......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

    Industrial Society has destroyed almost all Ecosystems in just 250 years......because it is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

    Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter......And even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.



    There is only one cause of environmental destruction......Industrialization.

    Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are only consequences/ by-products of Industrialization.

    Overconsumerism is quite obviously a consequence of Industrialization..... Industrial consumer goods and services would not exist without Industrial Activity.

    Overpopulation is also a by-product of Industrialization. The entire world was overbreeding until the middle years of 20th century.....even Western Countries had 5 - 12 children per family[and even more].....and yet population of the world remained low before industrialization because of high death rate, lower life span and shortage of food and water. It was only 1 billion in 1800 AD. India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago, since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions. What was the population of Europe/ America/ West 2000 years ago????......Was it comparable to eastern population of India and China????

    Industrialization is the cause of overpopulation and overconsumerism.

    Moreover, Environment has been destroyed by Industrialization/ Consumerism…….Not by Population/ Overpopulation.

    Total World Population has not increased ……It has decreased……In fact total world population has been decimated.

    When we talk of population we should take into account population of all animal species, not just human population.

    Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species……Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of animal species. The total burden of population on this planet has not increased…..It has decreased.

    Industrial Society has decimated millions of other species.....but there was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....and we don't even need to include smaller animals in this count.....the combined population of big animals alone whose size and weight was equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than current human population of 7 billion.

    The amount of food this animal population was eating was much greater than the food consumed by humans today.......Yet millions of animal species did not destroy environment and lived sustainably on earth for millions of years......because they destroyed environment only for food and not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

    If animals had started a consumerist "Industrial Society" millions of years ago they would have destroyed all ecosystems millions of years ago.

    The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

    What is the cause of human overpopulation??????......It is Industrialization......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion today ........In the absence of Industrialization world population would only be a small fraction of 7 billion today.

    It is not population that destroys environment......It is lifestyle.......The combined population of millions of animal species was much greater than present human population.......and yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years because they destroyed environment only for Food.......not for Thousands of Consumer Goods.

    The cause of Environmental Destruction is Industrialization / Consumerism.........Not population / overpopulation.

    A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would not destroy environment [And a Hunter_Gatherer Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

    An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would cause much lesser environmental destruction than an Industrial Society of 7 billion [And an Agrarian Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

    Industrialization is the cause of Human Overpopulation and Overconsumerism

    It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.

    Height of Insanity!

    Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.


    sushil_yadav
    Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

  7. #27

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    Industrialization is the cause of Human Overpopulation and Overconsumerism
    The only thing causing the over use of ANYTHING is the greed of the human mind. Greed in definition is a selfish and excessive desire for more of something than is needed. Industrialization and the use of technology is merely a tool. Tools are only as evil or as good as the person who wields them.

    People are overpopulating the planet not industry. Oh and I'd like to stir the pot and say that capitalism at its extreme is a monarchy.
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  8. #28

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    If Urban Society stops all its supplies to Villages......Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment, Villagers will survive forever.

    If Villages stop all their supplies to Cities......Food Grains and Vegetables, Urban Population will die within a month.

    Urban Population is engaged in Unnecessary Work, Meaningless Work, Futile Work and Destructive Work which has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.

    For millions of years "Searching For Food" / "Producing Food" were the primary occupations of almost the entire human population in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Society.

    There is Zero chance of saving the little environment that is left without fixing the problem of "Urban Population".

    .
    .

    Animal Species had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Hunter_Gatherer Society had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Agrarian Society had less than Two Percent Urban Population.......All these societies sustained for millions of years collectively.

    The current Industrial Society which has 50% Urban Population worldwide has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after Industrial Revolution.......Industrial Activity has been promoted by Urban Population......Industrial Activity has been promoted by people who do not produce food.

    This planet can sustain Animal Species.....It can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Human Society......It can sustain Agrarian Human Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Human Society.

    This planet can only sustain food producing societies where almost the entire population is engaged in food production......It cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of world population is growing food for entire population and the remaining 50% living in cities is promoting Industrial Activity.

    Animals saved environment for millions of years because they destroyed it only for food.....Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food.....Agrarian Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.

    Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

    In the Animal Kingdom, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in "Searching for Food" / "Growing Food".

    It is the Urban Population that is engaged in and promoting Industrial Activity ......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes…..They all destroy environment......All Industrial Activity must be stopped.

    Food, clothing and shelter......These are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans......The only way to save the remaining environment is by reorganizing the entire population so that food production remains the only primary activity just like it was for millions of years before Industrialization.

    .
    .

    This planet cannot sustain an Industrial / Urban Society......The problem is not Capitalism, The problem is Industrialization / Urbanization.......The solution is not Communism or Socialism, The solution is Non-Industrial / Non-Urban Society.

    Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter at all........What matters is percentage of Urban Population......A Socialist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population...... A Communist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population.

    Urban Population is responsible for consumerism.......Urban Population does not produce Food.....It produces thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.

    Consumerism is directly proportional to Percentage of Urban Population.

    Saving environment in Industrial Society is an impossibility......No Industrial Society can save environment.......Communist or Socialist Industrial Societies cannot be less destructive than Capitalist Industrial Societies.

    There cannot be any sustainable Industrial Society........The fault does not lie in Capitalism.....The fault lies in Industrialization.....All Industrial Societies are the same.....All Industrial Societies are equally destructive, harmful and evil.

    Destruction of environment is guaranteed in Industrial Society......The debate over Capitalism, Communism and Socialism in the context of Environmental Crisis is meaningless and absurd.

    Industrialization , Urbanization and Consumerism go hand in hand......They happen together.

    Today 50% of world population is Urban, living in cities...... 50% of world population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population living in Cities is primarily engaged in production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services........Urban population is not producing food, it is producing consumer goods and services.......Even if the entire world is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to bring about any change in consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population will remain the same and it will continue producing and marketing thousands of consumer goods and services.

    In America 90 - 95% of population is Urban......That is why consumerism is so rampant in the US......Even if America is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to reduce consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population would still remain the same.

    In Europe 80 - 90% of population is Urban.

    In China and India consumerism has risen exponentially with the increase in percentage of Urban Population.

    Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter.......What matters is Industrialization and Urbanization which results in Consumerism.

    This planet cannot sustain Industrial Urban Population.......This planet cannot sustain a society that does not produce its own food.

    This planet can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society where almost the entire population is engaged in "searching for food" / producing food......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services.


    Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

  9. #29
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Industrial Revolution and the Electric Age

    The Industrial Revolution began in 1750 and ended in 1840.

    Why did it end in 1840?

    The Industrial Revolution ended in 1840 when the electric telegraph was invented and the Electric Age began.

    And it seems plain to me that we still can't get our minds around the meaning of the Electric Age.

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