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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Translation of my crappy French means it is the life for (feminine)the ENTJ. We challenge and enjoy verbal fencing
    Probably better than wrestling, the images that come out when I searched for man wrestles woman where obscene! Putting ENTJ into the search didnt help either.

    The idealism of Wilde ignores biological imperative. I'm uncertain how to create uniform happiness when individuals are different and not just due to nurture. So do you cram these square pegs into round holes with the hope that altruism towards a social whole trumps nature?


    Oh wait, you're serious? I know you've not read Wilde from reading that, plus biological imperative? What is that horse shit? Who said anything about uniform happiness, square pegs and altruism, cheers metaphor but this is a little like a the blind men describing the elephant or someone from prehistory describing a car.

    If you'd like to discuss it, because it is a bit of a derail and thread hi-jack, check out the socialism group I created, its meant to be for anti-socialists as much as socialists to discuss the topic. Up to you though.

    So what happens when 30% of the population decide they're happy doing nothing? Oh, hang on...
    Well they have to get out of the boardroom more often.

  2. #32
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Oh wait, you're serious? I know you've not read Wilde from reading that, plus biological imperative? What is that horse shit? Who said anything about uniform happiness, square pegs and altruism, cheers metaphor but this is a little like a the blind men describing the elephant or someone from prehistory describing a car.
    I can see you're determined to hang onto the fluffy idealism of Wilde in his essay. Yes, I can see that removing all elements of the struggle for natural survival will ensure that every individual will find their niche in life for the benefit of the greater good of society.

    If you'd like to discuss it, because it is a bit of a derail and thread hi-jack, check out the socialism group I created, its meant to be for anti-socialists as much as socialists to discuss the topic. Up to you though.
    I'm anti-any ideal in its entirety. Note that my original response discusses both sides and disagrees. There's a time and a place for each ideal but there also has to be flexibility and more importantly, realism within every ideal.
    Well they have to get out of the boardroom more often.
    This tells me you've never been in a boardroom meeting or have understood the positioning of attendees. The undercurrents are fascinating. Much goes on that the minutes don't come close to explaining.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    I can see you're determined to hang onto the fluffy idealism of Wilde in his essay. Yes, I can see that removing all elements of the struggle for natural survival will ensure that every individual will find their niche in life for the benefit of the greater good of society.
    All I'm going to say is you've really not read the book I'm talking about posting like that.

    I'm anti-any ideal in its entirety. Note that my original response discusses both sides and disagrees. There's a time and a place for each ideal but there also has to be flexibility and more importantly, realism within every ideal.
    Nothing wrong with that. You're wrong to associate socialism as synonymous with idealism. Can think of a half dozen essays by Orwell on that point I could refer you too (you didnt know he was a socialist did you?) but since you didnt bother with Wilde

    This tells me you've never been in a boardroom meeting or have understood the positioning of attendees. The undercurrents are fascinating. Much goes on that the minutes don't come close to explaining.


    Yeah, alright, whatever you say.

    I've been to those meetings BTW.

  4. #34
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    All I'm going to say is you've really not read the book I'm talking about posting like that.
    You're suggesting I didn't read it since Wilde feels that it's the fault of altruism that enables capitalistic societies since it attempts to compensate for the purported wrongdoings of capitalism. I'm suggesting you dig deeper and apply what he suggests towards reality and realize that it's nothing but a pipe dream.

    Nothing wrong with that. You're wrong to associate socialism as synonymous with idealism. Can think of a half dozen essays by Orwell on that point I could refer you too (you didnt know he was a socialist did you?) but since you didnt bother with Wilde
    Socialism is about as fluffy as a free market. Do you understand the word idealism? I don't think you do.




    Yeah, alright, whatever you say.

    I've been to those meetings BTW.
    I guarantee you haven't either been to one or at minimum, haven't understood anything being discussed, the dynamics between the individuals, alignments, relationships, direction and pre-agreed upon issues.

  5. #35
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I see you two have been lost forever.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    You're suggesting I didn't read it since Wilde feels that it's the fault of altruism that enables capitalistic societies since it attempts to compensate for the purported wrongdoings of capitalism. I'm suggesting you dig deeper and apply what he suggests towards reality and realize that it's nothing but a pipe dream.
    And what DOES he suggest? I'm not suggesting you're unfamiliar with it for that reason.

    Socialism is about as fluffy as a free market. Do you understand the word idealism? I don't think you do.
    I do understand the word idealism, you're misapplying it but I know what you mean, I'm inclined to disagree with you about socialism. Its nice that you think that but you really shouldnt persist in error when someone points it out.

    I guarantee you haven't either been to one or at minimum, haven't understood anything being discussed, the dynamics between the individuals, alignments, relationships, direction and pre-agreed upon issues.
    Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Afraid you're just wrong again.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I see you two have been lost forever.

  8. #38
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And what DOES he suggest? I'm not suggesting you're unfamiliar with it for that reason.
    Wilde is suggesting a form of self-actualisation with the base premise that all basic human needs have been met (by whom if everyone is busy self-actualising), whereby in self-actualising everyone will become a productive cog in society bowing to a greater authority. "It trusts to Socialism"...ahahahaha, do you mean like the Soviet Union and China (Great Leap Forward )? Totally incorruptible, right?

    Okay...so what happens when everyone wants to be the lead singer for a band?

    I do understand the word idealism, you're misapplying it but I know what you mean, I'm inclined to disagree with you about socialism. Its nice that you think that but you really shouldnt persist in error when someone points it out.
    And I'm inclined to disagree with you about socialism and assumption of right and wrong.

    Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Afraid you're just wrong again.
    Good lord, now I KNOW for certain you've never attended one!

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Wilde is suggesting a form of self-actualisation with the base premise that all basic human needs have been met (by whom if everyone is busy self-actualising), whereby in self-actualising everyone will become a productive cog in society bowing to a greater authority. "It trusts to Socialism"...ahahahaha, do you mean like the Soviet Union and China (Great Leap Forward )? Totally incorruptible, right?
    Alright, this is wordy BS but the point was that his entire essay is about how individualism as dreamt of by most people isnt feasible under capitalism because of many people are dependent, the goal of socialism should be a bridge to individualism, its reflective of pretty much all the socialist writers and the opposite of what you first suggested about socialism.

    Okay...so what happens when everyone wants to be the lead singer for a band?
    Well, what happens at the minute?

    And I'm inclined to disagree with you about socialism and assumption of right and wrong.
    Hey, I cant stop you being wrong about things.

    Good lord, now I KNOW for certain you've never attended one!
    You KNOW huh? For certain?

  10. #40
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Alright, this is wordy BS but the point was that his entire essay is about how individualism as dreamt of by most people isnt feasible under capitalism because of many people are dependent, the goal of socialism should be a bridge to individualism, its reflective of pretty much all the socialist writers and the opposite of what you first suggested about socialism.
    Oh come on. Socialism is the hive mind where everyone is being taken care of. Add in how individualism is possible within a hive mind environment. Nothing but altruistic fluff and stuff.
    Well, what happens at the minute?
    At the moment, certain individuals end up becoming lead singers and others give up since they can't make a living. In a pipe dream environment, all the wannabe lead singers who don't make it will be supported by the State.
    Hey, I cant stop you being wrong about things.
    Grow up Lark. This is silly.
    You KNOW huh? For certain?
    Yes. It's very obvious.

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