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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Neither left nor right but I would agree with this except to suggest that the left will have difficulty with self-responsibility.

    Wo-man.
    I dont understand what you mean by neither lefr nor right, you're shitting me telling me that the left will have a difficulty with self-responsibility, that's complete and utter BS and I'd provide you the links to prove it if I could be arsed but I cant.

    For most of its life the left wing has been about self-management and fundamentally opposed to the managerial revolution which in no small part contributed to the crisis in personal responsibility which has largely made socialism or capitalism impossible.

    Woman? A second female ENTJ? Awesome, I thought there was only the one. Want to wrestle?

  2. #22
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont understand what you mean by neither lefr nor right, you're shitting me telling me that the left will have a difficulty with self-responsibility, that's complete and utter BS and I'd provide you the links to prove it if I could be arsed but I cant.

    For most of its life the left wing has been about self-management and fundamentally opposed to the managerial revolution which in no small part contributed to the crisis in personal responsibility which has largely made socialism or capitalism impossible.
    Oh, come on. Be a sport and explain to me how socialism and communism are all about self-responsibility.

    Woman? A second female ENTJ? Awesome, I thought there was only the one. Want to wrestle?
    Wow, so you're another ENTJ woman? There are a few of us on TypoC.

    Wrestle? Rather en garde!

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Oh, come on. Be a sport and explain to me how socialism and communism are all about self-responsibility.
    I could put it as simply as this, how are they not?

    Now you're not allowed to refer to welfare statism, benefits/poor relief, social services or health services because they're all, whether state managed or not, part of any developed economy and most of them not even drafted in by socialists in the first place.

    Wow, so you're another ENTJ woman? There are a few of us on TypoC.

    Wrestle? Rather en garde!
    No, I'm not an ENTJ woman, I'm a man but I never meet ENTJ women, I've met one or two who try to act ENTJ but its BS or they're just acting a role at work.

    En garde? Oh I see, you want to fence!

  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    All I'm asking for is evidence for statements of such.
    Hmm. Have you studied sociology or anthropology much?

    The pervasive understanding is that the big kick-off for human populations was the development of agriculture. This can be called a technological development. It allowed for vastly improved output of food, which in turn caused the population to explode.

    Crowd behavior is not terribly efficient. Administration makes it more efficient. It's not mere coincidence that agriculture usually lead to a chiefdom and then some primitive state. The organization provides important advantages that, if not taken, would probably have made a group of people easy targets for another group of people that had taken these advantages. It's a of matter competition you see. Law (especially the codified kind) and orginization of people along both lateral and vertical lines, really works better than the chaotic results of not doing any of those things.

    With this mass, administered population, the most important thing happens, people can start specializing in labor. Not everyone has to spend all day trying to do all the basic jobs for survival. Instead one can spend their life professionally figuring out how to make a shoe. And when someone does that, they learn how to make a pretty awesome shoe. Further advances in technology, which protect people from elements, make them better at defending themselves and conquering others, produce more efficiently, make them healthier, etc... cause the population to grow even further.

    With an even larger population the administration of it must get even more complicated. The technology itself, I will add, creates complexity which also requires more complex administration. You see how I'm starting to get to a circle here?

    If you somehow wiped out all of our technology at once, I'd say billions of people would die within a century (actually, we'd fall well short of 1 billion before it was over), because that much of our current population is dependent on our technology. Technology needing to be managed as well as being used by authorities would be gone, and the population would be much smaller, so government would significantly shrink and simplify.

    If you obliterated 99% of people, the remainder would experience a massive setback in technology, because the workforce just wouldn't be large enough, wouldn't be diverse enough, wouldn't produce enough excess resources and leisure to make our current technology maintainable. Slightly the other way around, government would shrink and simplify for the same reason as a above.

    If you tried to wipe out our government...? It would just come back. It would come back right away, and it would quickly get as big as it currently is, because the population and technology would require it, but fortunately would not instantly disappear without it. There'd be enough time to get it back. It's not a possible scenario for the to really be no governent at this point. It's defies human behavior.

    To imagine the government disappearing and staying gone creatse a silly picture. I imagine all these people, and all this technology, and yet no official organization. I can't fathom why that would happen. But if it did, technology and population size would rapidly decline, because they couldn't be implented in any usable way.

    ...

    You might have noticed that human development actually follows an incredibly predicable pattern. I suppose another way of looking at this is for me to ask you to explain how a society of this population size utilizing this technology could be anarchic, and why no society like that has ever existed up to this point?

    Give me your counter-argument. How is what I said up to this point not true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    The economic happiness quotient. I don't buy into it since advancement of civilisation can be laid at the feet of dissatisfaction.
    1: Actually, it seems to me that for better and definitely sometimes for worse we intrepidly march forward just because we want more, not because the current situation is unnaceptably bad. Or, to look at another way, maybe we consider any sitation that isn't complete happiness unacceptable, so we are always on the move.

    2: The people who are in the worst conditions are among the least likely to cause social change, this is well documented. Look it up.

    3: This isn't relevant anyway, because I am talking about what to aim for, not what happens to be common behavior. The norm and what is desired are often far apart. To use what is so as the standard for what to achieve automatically amounts to complete stagnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    As far as unchecked, refer to the Russian and French Revolutions. Refer to the Communist (actually socialist) takeover in China. We check ourselves through equalisation.
    That's going the opposite way, and it too is problematic. The golden factor is encompassing interest. The encompassing the interests of the centers of power are, the more prosperous people are on average. This is a big part of the idea behind democracy, it gives government more interest in what people want. Unfortunately, left without and official orginization, or center of authority, we do not equalize ourselves, we do the exact opposite.

    There is no option for everyone to "do their own thing". This will not result in equality or freedom, even if you might think it would at first glance. As people in a society, we will always be constrained by obligation to society and dependence on other members of society. The only real battle is between narrowed interests (authoritarianism) and encompassing interests (which could debatably be communitarianism). Encompassing interests and little social obligation-dependence is libertarianism, and it's impossible. When you try to do libertarianism, what you ultimately get is authoritarianism. The only way to get away from authoritariasm is for people to get into a very big contract with each other, which automatically limits individualism unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    But let's argue the other side. Overpopulation isn't "good" for mankind and neither is the current irresponsible nature of the Peter Pan generation.
    If you want a small, primitive population that lives in anarchy, that's not what I want, but I can't tell you that you can't want it. I argue against a large population with advanced technology in anarachy not as a matter of taste, but as a matter of fact. It is impossible and as such won't get you what you might think it would get you.

    Now I apologize for the quality of this post because it was written from start to finish and I'm getting tired, so it's sloppy and has tangential, ranty qualities.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Oh yeah.. if you're not happy with my post, then I really do recommend you read about sociology and anthropology from people more professional and credentialed than me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Oh yeah.. if you're not happy with my post, then I really do recommend you read about sociology and anthropology from people more professional and credentialed than me.
    I'd say your word would be as good as theirs, I like your posts man, what's up? Oh is Metaphor being an eejit to you too?

    Just challenge her to a duel/wrestle, I think she's being stereotypical ENTJ.

  7. #27
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I could put it as simply as this, how are they not?

    Now you're not allowed to refer to welfare statism, benefits/poor relief, social services or health services because they're all, whether state managed or not, part of any developed economy and most of them not even drafted in by socialists in the first place.
    Nuh uh, in any game of poker, when you've been called, it's up to you show your hand. You cannot ask me to call my hand first.

    So ENTJ to reframe and reposition!

    But I am curious to hear how self-responsibility is part of socialism or communism so humour me and explain.

    No, I'm not an ENTJ woman, I'm a man but I never meet ENTJ women, I've met one or two who try to act ENTJ but its BS or they're just acting a role at work.
    Whew, thought my man-dar went wonky. You've read my "what it feels like to be an ENTJ" so you judge whether I'm real or not.

    En garde? Oh I see, you want to fence!
    Mais oui. C'est la vie pour la ENTJ.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Nuh uh, in any game of poker, when you've been called, it's up to you show your hand. You cannot ask me to call my hand first.

    So ENTJ to reframe and reposition!

    But I am curious to hear how self-responsibility is part of socialism or communism so humour me and explain.

    Whew, thought my man-dar went wonky. You've read my "what it feels like to be an ENTJ" so you judge whether I'm real or not.

    Mais oui. C'est la vie pour la ENTJ.
    I dont speak french so that's lost on me.

    Socialism is about that, just read any good socialist book and you'll see, the BS conservative-capitalist ideology which says it isnt is popular precisely because personal responsibility is popular, socialists missed a trick letting them dominate things and frame the debate like that.

    If you read Wilde's Soul of Man Under Socialism its pretty much all there or GDH Cole or Eric Fromm, with the added bonus that reading Fromm its also unmistakeable that no only do socialists presume and support personal responsibility but also a work ethic that makes Calvinists look like slackers.

    The sort society which neglects personal responsibility, becomes lazy and, shit, even a litigatious society is all founded on a lot of alienation and consumerism. Anyone, left or right, who tells you socialism is about improving the purchasing power of poorest has the whole idea inside out, upside down and wrong. You can tell them so. Tell them Lark sent you.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    This is like me just second before I totally pin Metaphor, with the power of my mind and eyes alone!!

  10. #30
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont speak french so that's lost on me.

    Socialism is about that, just read any good socialist book and you'll see, the BS conservative-capitalist ideology which says it isnt is popular precisely because personal responsibility is popular, socialists missed a trick letting them dominate things and frame the debate like that.

    If you read Wilde's Soul of Man Under Socialism its pretty much all there or GDH Cole or Eric Fromm, with the added bonus that reading Fromm its also unmistakeable that no only do socialists presume and support personal responsibility but also a work ethic that makes Calvinists look like slackers.

    The sort society which neglects personal responsibility, becomes lazy and, shit, even a litigatious society is all founded on a lot of alienation and consumerism. Anyone, left or right, who tells you socialism is about improving the purchasing power of poorest has the whole idea inside out, upside down and wrong. You can tell them so. Tell them Lark sent you.
    Translation of my crappy French means it is the life for (feminine)the ENTJ. We challenge and enjoy verbal fencing.

    The idealism of Wilde ignores biological imperative. I'm uncertain how to create uniform happiness when individuals are different and not just due to nurture. So do you cram these square pegs into round holes with the hope that altruism towards a social whole trumps nature?

    So what happens when 30% of the population decide they're happy doing nothing? Oh, hang on...

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