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View Poll Results: Should sex offenders be treated humanely (in prison)?

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  • Yes.

    50 73.53%
  • No.

    13 19.12%
  • Unsure.

    5 7.35%
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  1. #51
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    I thought we were talking about child molesters who were in prison. The ones who havnt gotten caught is another topic. Sorry nothing will ever change my mind, eye for an eye.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    And if you can see this only as a matter of pittying the child molester himself, then once again I must remind that this is only a piece of a big problem.
    I think some people are only looking at this as pitying the child molester. My perspective is different. This is about the integrity of the penal system. The way I see it, the prison administration allowed a prisoner to be abused. I seriously doubt they abuse all prisoners equally, and I also doubt child molesters are the only prisoners they abuse. If society decides that rape is the proper punishment for child molesters, put it into law and apply it equally to all child molesters. Don't leave it to the whims of corrupt prison guards.
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  3. #53
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Why do you believe it's an either/or scenario?
    Hey Lateralus,

    My response was short, so I can see where you read between the lines to ask this question, please allow me to clarify.

    I don't believe it's an either/or scenario.

    I believe that in aggregate, as a society, we spend more time, money, and effort overall on ensuring criminals' rights are preserved, than we do in assisting their victims, or making any real efforts to DETER or SUPPRESS the crimes they commit.

    It is very difficult for a woman to get a rape conviction against a man, unless there is ironclad forensic evidence, witnesses, video, etc. In these cases, there is no doubt as to what happened, and these dudes should be dealth with accordingly, no less than the inhumane treatment in the jails they receive, or a permanent solution.

    In cases where the evidence is "shaky" then maybe a window of time to appeal/overturn the judgement is appropriate. But that line must be decided by someone, and is in the end subjective and arbitrary.

    Most rapists and child molesters don't do what they do ONE TIME, just like other criminals, in many cases they commit several acts before they are caught. So maybe the hardest hand of justice should be reserved for the two time or worse offenders. Who knows. I'm thinking aloud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Would you have this same opinion if you were wrongly convicted of a sex crime?
    Honestly, yes, I would actually. Why? Because if I were wrongly convicted of a sex crime the odds I would get my conviction overturned VS. getting raped and beaten in prison for year after year are next to none. Furthermore, I'm not putting myself in any situations where I could potentially be charged with such crimes. I'm a good man living a quiet and simple life, my risk of being wrongfully convicted is so low, that I'd be willing to implement a much more harsh criminal justice system for the sake of deterrence, suppression, and economic efficiency.

    What is the number of people wrongly convicted for sex crimes? I'm just curious. Are we talking 1%? 2%? 5% 43%? Does anyone know? "Better to let 10 guilty men go free than send 1 innocent man to jail" is the age old expression, right? Well, I'll place a wager that there are more guilty sex offenders in jail than innocent. Would it be a tragedy to euthanize a man wrongly convicted for being a sex offender? Sure it would, but it would spare him from being beaten and raped and tortured for several years like the man in the O.P. wouldn't it?

    Societal resources are limited. I would rather see the money we spend on preserving the rights of violent criminals, jailing them, paying for their court costs, etc. spent on education and an efficient and effective health care system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Well put. Most of what I believe to be wrong ways to look at justice tend to simplify what are intrinsically complicated issues.
    At some point you have to decide how to handle things, not everything can be eternally analyzed and considered. At some point you have to make decisions based on the information you have available, and judgement, and be willing to live with the consequences. Analysis paralysis doesn't accomplish much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Sure, killing someone resolves a problem in the short term, but for long term success the system has to make sense and be self-critical too.
    The (criminal justice) system has been around for "the long term" and has been extremely self critical, and quite frankly, the (criminal justice) system sucks.
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  4. #54
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    No. The person mentioned in the OP didn't just pursue a relationship with a child, he was actually a child pornographer, which is so much worse. It wasn't just someone helplessly having impulses toward children - it was someone actively working to exploit and harm them for cash. Fuck that guy. Seriously.
    There were no indications he did it for any other reason other than personal enjoyment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow
    In my opinion I think that anyone who molests young children or rapes women deserves to be raped in prison, maybe it would teach them a lesson. They might think twice about ever doing it again.
    Victims of prison rape are more likely to be dangerous to the public, because they are more likely to be traumatized by prison rape leading to violent outbursts to those around them. They are more likely to commit crimes after they are released.
    Violent offenders are most likely to commit these prison rapes and they don't commit them solely based on the victim being convicted of a sex crime. It's about getting the easiest target and since there are people like yourself running the prison systems or people in general who see it as just, sex offenders are most often the easiest targets. By condoning it, you are making prisons seem like heaven to prison rapists and even encouraging them to develop more violent behaviors. They get free food, free television, free health care and they can run around raping, beating the shit out of and murdering anyone on a whim.

    While no one ever deserves to be raped, even if they are rapists themselves, and while the article rightly notes that corrections officers make up a majority of prison rapists, the fact is also that inmates convicted of violent crimes are the most likely inmates to act as rapists. And since rapists seek out the most vulnerable victims, inmates convicted of non-violent crimes are the most likely to be raped. While it would not be at all acceptable even if it was, rape also does not act as a deterrent to future crimes. It just creates victims who have nowhere to turn, no one who cares, and who are actually likely to commit more crimes upon release as a method of coping with their extraordinary trauma.
    What bothers me isn't necessarily the way he was treated, but the way it's justified and even encouraged by the supposedly civilized. Aren't US prisons suppose to reform the prisoners? Well if the behaviors that got them sent to prison are being allowed and even encouraged, who is getting reformed? No one. As I said before, the situation escalates and now there are five more problems to deal with. It is all preventable and in the end it would be more beneficial to do so.

  5. #55
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    I have mixed emotions about this.

    On the one hand, the offenders' acts are (often) unimaginably rephrehensible - and cause such long-term devastation to the victim - such that it's hard to humanize the criminal.

    On the other hand, we don't have sex offenders the opportunity to rehabilitate and reintegrate like we do with other criminals. Put simply, our criminal system assigns penalties based on certain factors of the crime. In some ways, it seems unfair to me that we throw away the concept of paying your debt back to society and calling it even because of the nature of the crime. We create a system in which nobody is ever really left with a clean slate to start again. Once you're a criminal, you're forever branded one - and with no other crime is this as much the case as it is with sexual offenses.

    No wonder we have so many repeat offenders. You're never really in a position to reintegrate into society.


    I... suppose. Yeah!

  6. #56
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    There's a good reason why I didn't make my job one to judge others based on their deeds..

    Jail should not be a place of luxury.. it's a place of punishment. The PLACE is the punishment. Your time served, working everyday, not going anywhere, not doing anything.. no visiting your family.. the various amounts of rights that get taken away when you go to jail (ability to carry firearms, etc.) depends on your crime, etc.

    I think these things are in place because they are sufficient punishment. We don't need people acting like mini-judges running around deciding what people do or do not deserve. Everyone's ideas on that are different. We compromise on jail-time.

    ... At the same time. Everyone knows what jail is like. No one is oblivious to the type of people, and the environment, that federal prison is. You take your risk doing something that'll get you sent there.

    I'm not happy that it's that way. I wish it weren't. But you don't move to the ghetto and go crazy because someone broke into your house and stole your TV. Especially not when you had the choice of moving to a nicer area and CHOSE the ghetto.
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  7. #57
    Oberon
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    I think we should treat all prisoners humanely--even child molesters--not because of who they are, but because of who we are.

    We should constitute a nation of laws, not of men, and our goal should be justice, not vengeance.

  8. #58
    Oberon
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    Jeez... the more I post in this thread, the more I sound like Victor.

  9. #59
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Personally i'd really like to hear from someone who has children who would want the molester of their child/children (hypothetically of course) treated humanely in prison.
    Anyone?
    I'd probably want them to let me in so I could fuck him up myself, but that's why we don't put victims or their families in charge of deciding on punishments. Not only is it completely counter to objectivity and the "lady justice is blind" values of the American justice system, it would also just be corrosive to my psyche and soul to be allowed to become a perpetrator myself. Allowing it and wanting it to happen at the hands of another person isn't that far removed. Annwn's post really spoke to me- there's no healing in that level of vengeance. It only amplifies the pain.

    Oberon's latest post spoke to me too- we shouldn't allow this to happen, not because of who they are, but because of who we are.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Hey Lateralus,

    My response was short, so I can see where you read between the lines to ask this question, please allow me to clarify.

    I don't believe it's an either/or scenario.

    I believe that in aggregate, as a society, we spend more time, money, and effort overall on ensuring criminals' rights are preserved, than we do in assisting their victims, or making any real efforts to DETER or SUPPRESS the crimes they commit.
    Do you have any evidence of this (specifically in regards to sex crimes)? I ask because my perception is different. I see a hysteria in our society over child molesters, with only groups like the ACLU standing against an army of conservatives who want to put just about everyone in our already overcrowded prisons.

    It is very difficult for a woman to get a rape conviction against a man, unless there is ironclad forensic evidence, witnesses, video, etc. In these cases, there is no doubt as to what happened, and these dudes should be dealth with accordingly, no less than the inhumane treatment in the jails they receive, or a permanent solution.
    I thought this thread was about child molesters. I don't see all sex crimes as equal.

    Honestly, yes, I would actually. Why? Because if I were wrongly convicted of a sex crime the odds I would get my conviction overturned VS. getting raped and beaten in prison for year after year are next to none. Furthermore, I'm not putting myself in any situations where I could potentially be charged with such crimes. I'm a good man living a quiet and simple life, my risk of being wrongfully convicted is so low, that I'd be willing to implement a much more harsh criminal justice system for the sake of deterrence, suppression, and economic efficiency.
    Pardon me for not taking you at your word. It's very easy for you to say that now.

    What is the number of people wrongly convicted for sex crimes? I'm just curious. Are we talking 1%? 2%? 5% 43%? Does anyone know? "Better to let 10 guilty men go free than send 1 innocent man to jail" is the age old expression, right? Well, I'll place a wager that there are more guilty sex offenders in jail than innocent. Would it be a tragedy to euthanize a man wrongly convicted for being a sex offender? Sure it would, but it would spare him from being beaten and raped and tortured for several years like the man in the O.P. wouldn't it?
    It takes years to actually execute a prisoner. Are you saying that we should immediately execute prisoners, eliminating their chance to appeal their conviction, to spare them the abuse?

    Societal resources are limited. I would rather see the money we spend on preserving the rights of violent criminals, jailing them, paying for their court costs, etc. spent on education and an efficient and effective health care system.
    Call me cynical, but I don't think the money saved would be spent efficiently.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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