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View Poll Results: Should sex offenders be treated humanely (in prison)?

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  • Yes.

    50 73.53%
  • No.

    13 19.12%
  • Unsure.

    5 7.35%
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  1. #111
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you understand what a natural or logical consequence is?

    Natural Consequences - WikEd
    From your own link:

    Natural consequences are situations that are not controlled by anyone.
    The prison guards, in this case, were in control and allowed the beating to occur.

    There is no implication that it is natural for one person to rape another, that's not what I'm suggesting at all and its totally out of keeping with my perspective as easily discerned from my posts in total in this thread.

    Now to selectively cite this or that part with a particular spin does not benefit the dialogue nor does it particularly make your point well and its not something I would expect. Perhaps in a conversation where things can become heated or where other factors are at stake, in an online discussion where there is time and space to take a breath, think, reflect and then respond, surely not.

    I seriously feel it remains to be seen the true extent to which the prison guards have neglected their duties and precisely why, I very much doubt that it would amount to an unofficial prison policy, tacitly agreed and operating like an open conspiracy. Imply such serves who? To what end?
    We don't have all the information, but it's pretty clear based on the stories that I've read that some prison guards bear some responsibility. I doubt this is official policy, and it's pretty ridiculous to assert that it would need to be official policy in order for there to be any responsibility. If anything, it would be unofficial policy. I hope you're not demanding interdepartmental memos as evidence, or something equally absurd.

    The trouble about prisons is that they are full of criminals, criminals behave in a certain way, that much is surely beyond question, it is why they are taken from normal, lawful society and placed apart from it. It is surely not a surprise that they behave towards one another as they did towards anyone else.
    Wait, prisons are full of criminals? Since when?

    Perhaps the existence of continued predatory behaviour among inmates does retard or arrest any rehabilitation, if you believe in that kind of thing, perhaps in that respect this prison has failed or prisons per se fail but in respect of keeping this prepetrator from his original quary and prey or victims or their kin or any other innocent and lawful individual or child it has succeeded. For me that's enough you know.
    I couldn't care less about rehabilitation. I care about corruption. These guards are corrupt. All other facts are peripheral.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #112
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    From your own link:



    The prison guards, in this case, were in control and allowed the beating to occur.


    We don't have all the information, but it's pretty clear based on the stories that I've read that some prison guards bear some responsibility. I doubt this is official policy, and it's pretty ridiculous to assert that it would need to be official policy in order for there to be any responsibility. If anything, it would be unofficial policy. I hope you're not demanding interdepartmental memos as evidence, or something equally absurd.


    Wait, prisons are full of criminals? Since when?


    I couldn't care less about rehabilitation. I care about corruption. These guards are corrupt. All other facts are peripheral.
    I had a proper response in mind for you should you persist in this error but reading the fourth line into this I decided that you're more interested in some kind of adolescent point scoring exercise. That's alright. Its good to know how you're using the forum and I'll keep it in mind when I decide whether or not to bother putting the energy into posting responses to you.

  3. #113
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I don't think I'm placing unrealistic expectations on the state, namely for it to do its job of maintaining order, either in society as a whole or within its own institutions. Maintaining order in prisons is absolutely key not just for the inmates' sakes, but also for the guards too.

    Allowing prisoners to freely assault, rape, kill each other is not exactly a positive in the long run. One example I can give were the "Bitch Wars" in Stalinist gulags, when inmates were not only allowed but even encouraged to assault and kill each other. The mentality was this helped thin out the prison population, and of course who cares anyways about criminals. Those who survived it turned out were more viciously brutal than before, not to mention more politically savy too(they learned the fine art of playing factions against one another and also how to court the favor of guards). These men later became the foundation for the Russian mafia as we know it, which plagued Russia and much of the world after Communism fell.

    An extreme case certainly, but it helps to show what happens when you dont try to reasonably minimalise the brutality found in prisons. You can't expect to keep all these guys locked up forever and many will have to be released back to society.
    Some excellent examples there, I agree with you that violence within prisons shouldnt be minimalised and the kinds of consequences which will follow from entrenched corruption.

    I dont believe it is an unrealistic expectation that the state try to maintain order, trying and succeeding are two different things though, perhaps I'm jaded as a result of my own experiences or context and they definitely should try in their own institutions to provide order.

    On the other hand I stand by what I said about perfectionism and also my citation to Lateralus about natural consequences.

    There's a difference between suggesting that you can provide the sort of protection to offenders once they are apprehended that it wasnt possible to provide for their victims in the first instance and supporting "bitch wars".

    I'm constantly reminded of the scene in Liar, Liar when I read threads like this, when the guy rings up asking for "legal advice" when his attorney cant lie and he responds by shouting "Stop breaking the law Asshole!". If I where more mystical about it I could call it karmic but I'm not so I'll not pretend.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I care about corruption. These guards are corrupt. All other facts are peripheral.
    All personal feelings about rapists and child molesters aside, I whole heartedly agree that we cannot allow prison guards and other authority figures to be corrupt and arbitrary in their treatment of prisoners. Guards and other employees of the system should in no way abuse their position of power, no matter who the prisoner is and what crime he or she has committed.

    That's why I'm not a prison guard or a lawyer, etc. Duh. I know my personality lends itself too much to passion to be a responsible member of one those professions.

  5. #115
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Well said, marm.

    A former member of our church was caught sexually abusing his adopted son on webcam. As if that weren't enough, he made some absolutely atrocious remarks (in the chatroom where he was sharing his webcam link) about how easy it is to adopt black children for the purposes of abusing them. Honestly, I'd have a hard time not strangling him on sight- but philosophically, I believe he has a right to the basic bodily safety he didn't give his son.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #116
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Well said, marm.

    A former member of our church was caught sexually abusing his adopted son on webcam. As if that weren't enough, he made some absolutely atrocious remarks (in the chatroom where he was sharing his webcam link) about how easy it is to adopt black children for the purposes of abusing them. Honestly, I'd have a hard time not strangling him on sight- but philosophically, I believe he has a right to the basic bodily safety he didn't give his son.
    Gosh i don't! not even philosophically.
    In a case like this i'd say feed him to the lions, film it and send it to all the sick bastards like him.
    I honestly couldn't give a shit about humanity in this example, it's just disgusting. Going to jail for the rest of his life and being treated humanely just isn't enough.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #117
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    What happens in jail doesn't stay in jail.

    These guys are coming out (doesn't matter if they were the abuser or victim in prison) with more venom, more physical strength and more experience to abuse someone else -- not located in the prison system.

    It's been painfully obvious for years that the current prison system doesn't rehabilitate sex offenders, it promotes them.

    Whatever one may wish on these guys doesn't take away the fact that the vast majority of them are going to be free again one day.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Gosh i don't! not even philosophically.
    In a case like this i'd say feed him to the lions, film it and send it to all the sick bastards like him.
    I honestly couldn't give a shit about humanity in this example, it's just disgusting. Going to jail for the rest of his life and being treated humanely just isn't enough.
    I agree. To me, when you don't value others' humanity, you become less than human yourself. Even animals are better than a child-molesting human, who even supports the community of others like him. I have heard that statistically, such people never really change, even with rehabilitation, once they've gone that far, the desire and thoughts is something they always have to contend with. In certain past societies, molesters and rapists and such were just killed. I don't see why they deserve a humanity they don't recognise in others. Why should the taxes of the community go to support and house a person who preys on that society?
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  9. #119
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    I agree. To me, when you don't value others' humanity, you become less than human yourself. Even animals are better than a child-molesting human, who even supports the community of others like him. I have heard that statistically, such people never really change, even with rehabilitation, once they've gone that far, the desire and thoughts is something they always have to contend with. In certain past societies, molesters and rapists and such were just killed. I don't see why they deserve a humanity they don't recognise in others. Why should the taxes of the community go to support and house a person who preys on that society?
    My gut instinct is to support this you know, to say hang 'em high, flog 'em, beat 'em, maul 'em but I've been in positions where I've been the one administering sanctions and punishments and I've made observations.

    Entirely different scenario and with some harder cases I think there's no point taking a softer approach. However, I would say that administering punishments can change people, especially if they arent that self-aware to begin with. I'm unsure that I would put the corruption label on it but it definitely does have an impact and shape your personality.

    You dont want to kill the humanity in yourself because you have to deal with some human turned animal you know?

    I remember stories about the holocaust about how the Nazi's knew about the impact upon soldiers who where enlisted in the death camps and witnessed mass killings, they would rotate them so that none of them was unable to kill on command, traumatised individuals where sent off to die on the Eastern front. It was an argument I got familiar with in debates between Ghandi supporters and physical force politicos.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tewt View Post
    What happens in jail doesn't stay in jail.

    These guys are coming out (doesn't matter if they were the abuser or victim in prison) with more venom, more physical strength and more experience to abuse someone else -- not located in the prison system.

    It's been painfully obvious for years that the current prison system doesn't rehabilitate sex offenders, it promotes them.

    Whatever one may wish on these guys doesn't take away the fact that the vast majority of them are going to be free again one day.
    That's a really good point, there should be a lot of evidence of that from Northern Ireland and particularly the prisoner release programmes.

    Some of the psychopaths who mass murdered people in pub shootings where reimprisoned after release because of violent crimes including cutting people up with stanley knives at football matches.

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